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NewsReal Sunday: Pots and Kettles: Maddow and Schaeffer Call Evangelicals “Village Idiots” Who Must be Excluded from American Political Life

September 27, 2009

If your Evangelical Church had a business meeting today, Frank Schaeffer, son of Christian philosopher Francis Schaeffer and owner of the world’s biggest daddy complex has an expression for what went on there—The lunatics running the asylum.

Using the pretext of a dubious poll question about whether Barack Obama is the anti-Christ, Rachel Maddow used guest Frank Schaeffer on Wednesday, September 16, to declare that Evangelical Christians are “village idiots” who should be excluded from politics.

Schaeffer, who has been getting ever more shrill in his desperate bid for attention, made his strongest statement yet blasting his former fellow church-goers in a blanket statement that would have the PC police kicking down his door had he made it of, say, Muslims.

MADDOW:  Today, Public Policy Polling released results from its new poll of residents of the great state of New Jersey.  The poll found that 18 percent of New Jersey conservatives say they are sure that President Obama is the anti-Christ.  No questions asked.  Another 17 percent of New Jersey self-identified conservatives say they just aren‘t sure, but they‘re not willing to rule it out….

Joining us now is Frank Schaeffer.  He grew up in the religious far right.  He is the author of “Crazy for God: How I Grew Up as One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right and Lived to Take All or Almost All of It Back.”

…  I do not know what possessed this polling firm to ask whether or not people think the president is the anti-Christ, but they did.  Does the response rate among conservatives surprise you?  More than one in three saying yes or they don‘t know.

SCHAEFFER:  Well, I was a child when President Kennedy was assassinated, and my mother thought, because he died of a head wound, foretold in scripture of the anti-Christ he would be resurrected as the anti-Christ.  She thought this might be a possibility.

So, those of us who come from the evangelical subculture have been weaned with our mother‘s milk on a changing cast list of villains.  It might be Kennedy to one generation, Obama to the next.

But I think the larger point this brings up is that the mainstream—not just media, but culture—doesn‘t sufficiently take stock of the fact that within our culture, we have a subculture which is literally a fifth column of insanity, that is bred from birth through home school, Christian school, evangelical college, whatever, to reject facts as a matter of faith.  And so, this substitute for authentic historic Christianity, and I may add as a little caveat here, I‘m a church-going Christian, really brings up the question: Can Christianity be rescued from Christians?  And that‘s an open question.

And when you see a bunch of people going around thinking that our president is the anti-Christ, you have to draw one of two conclusions.  Either these are racists looking for any excuse to level the next accusation or they‘re beyond crazy?  And I think beyond crazy is a better explanation.

And that evangelical subculture has rotted the brain of the United States of America and we have a big slice of our population waiting for Jesus to come back.  They look forward to Armageddon.  Good news is bad news to them.

When we talk about the “Left Behind” series of books that I talk about in my book “Crazy for God.” what we‘re talking about is a group of people that are resentful because they‘ve been left behind by modernity, by science, by education, by art, by literature. The rest of us are getting on with our lives.  These people are standing on the hilltop waiting for the end.

And this is a dangerous group of people to have as neighbors, and they‘re our national neighbors.  And this is the source of all of these insanities that we see leveled at the president.  One way or another they go back to this little evangelical subculture.  It‘s a disaster.

First, there is no evidence in the poll that the people responded were Christians.  That wasn’t a cross tabulation made in the poll.  Interestingly, though, the “Yes” respondents were disproportionately younger voters—not the segment of the population most likely to even think the Anti-Christ will ever exist, but the most likely to humorously give a stupid answer to a stupid question. (more about that later.)

Second, if you think it’s odd for a guy to start a long rambling answer to that question by trashing his mother, then—like most Americans including card-carrying members of the Religious Right that Schaeffer claims to have co-founded—you haven’t paid attention to Frank Schaeffer.

A fair amount has been written by former associates of Francis and Edith Schaeffer in sorrow that the favored son would trash his parents in ways that even their intimate friends say is at best unfair and at worst, untrue.

In one of the best articles, Os Guinness, former Schaeffer associate and the best man at Frank Schaeffer’s wedding writes in Christianity Today:

But neglect and guilt are not the deepest explanation. The real truth is that Franky, as [Frank Schaeffer] then called himself, was spoiled. He was more like a poster child for Benjamin Spock than the son of “fundamentalist missionaries.” Having been born well after his sisters, and having survived polio as a child, he was rarely challenged, disciplined, or denied. As a result, he grew up a “little Napoleon,” as some of the L’Abri students called him. He would boast that he could twist his parents around his little finger, and time and again he proved it.

This makes a lot of sense. You can’t beat this kind of bitterness into a child.  For it to be this twisted and megalomaniacal is has to be spoiled into them.

And writing a memoir that exaggerates his parents’ flaws into full blown hypocrisy and borderline madness is only one step in Frank Schaeffer’s bid to become the Voice of… something.

As to what kind of neighbors Evangelicals make, I’ll leave it up to you.  Who do you think is most likely to lock their doors, people in the buckle of the Bible belt, or people in 90% Democrat neighborhoods?

And now, we return to the continuing saga of the Village Idiots:

MADDOW:  … It doesn‘t seem like facts are relevant in trying to move people away from these beliefs.

SCHAEFFER:  You don‘t work to move them off this position.  You move past them.  Look, a village cannot reorganize village life to suit the village idiot.  It‘s as simple as that.  And we have to understand, we have a village idiot in this country, it‘s called “Fundamentalist Christianity.”

And until we move past these people—and let me add as a former lifelong Republican—until the Republican leadership has the guts to stand up and say it would better—it would be better not to have a Republican Party than have a party that caters to the village idiot, there‘s going to be no end in sight.  The next thing they‘ll do is accuse Obama of being the anti-Christ and then who knows what comes next on and on it goes.

There is no end to this stuff.  Why?  Because this subculture has as its fundamentalist faith that they distrust facts per se.  They believe in a younger of 6,000 years old with dinosaurs cavorting with human beings.  They think that whether it‘s economic news or news from the Middle East, it all has to do with the end of time and Christ returns.  This is la-la land.

And the Republican Party is totally enthralled to this subculture to the extent that there is no Republican Party.  There is a fundamentalist subculture which has become a cult.  It‘s fed red meat by the pawns like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and other people who are just not terribly bright themselves and they are talking to even stupider people.  That‘s where we‘re at.  That‘s where all of this is coming from.

And it‘s becoming circular.  It‘s becoming a joke.  Unfortunately, a dangerous joke because once in a while, one of these “looney tunes,” as we see, brings guns to public meetings.  Who knows what they do next.  It‘s a serious thing we all have to face, but the Democrats and sane Americans just have to move past these people, say, “Wait on the hilltop until the end, the rest of us are going to get on with rebuilding our country.”

… I mean what do you expect from people who ignored the chance to make Frank Schaeffer their cultural leader after my father died.  How DARE they!  I put it out there, but these stupid people didn’t know what they had.  So I joined the Orthodox Church and gave some speeches, had a few “conferences” attended by dozens of people, but somehow, the oldest church in Christendom didn’t decide to reorganize itself around me, either.  I mean what were they thinking?  I was going to bring them into the forefront of modern culture.  So I got more involved with the Republican Party and I was going to bring Christians of all stripes to McCain, then that moron George W. Bush and all those damned Evangelicals stole that from me, too.  But I’m going to show them, I’m writing for the Huffington Post now, and seen on Rachel Maddow by hundreds of people, and soon, soon, they will be very sorry…

In short, Frank Schaeffer likes to throw the word “insanity” around, but he needs to find a good shrink and work his daddy issues out in private.  He makes David Brock look like a model of intellectual and emotional stability.

Now, onto the poll that made this outburst of bigotry possible. On Public Policy Polling’s blog, they tell us about all the “thought” they put into this question:

“I’ve had several reporters call me now and ask where on earth we came up with the Anti-Christ question.  Well we didn’t.

“Last week we were scrambling to get a poll about Joe Wilson out andposted the questionnaire on our blog to get input from our readers and make sure we weren’t missing any important angles on that story. We also got that call for suggestions up on Twitter.

“One of the suggestions was that we poll on this question of whether Barack Obama is the Anti-Christ. We couldn’t get it on the Wilson poll due to length considerations, but I got several follow up e-mails and messages on Twitter from people saying they really did think we should ask it, so we did.

“We put it at the very end of the New Jersey poll, even after the demographic questions, because we just didn’t know how people would take it. It is definitely the strangest question we have ever asked. ..”

And well they should explain.  Those of us who do this for our living know that goofy in gets goofy out, and this question was just asking for trouble.  When you ask a completely non-serious question in a poll, you cannot expect a serious answer.  People will likely think it comic relief at the end of a dry fact based survey.

However, a week later, PPP put out another poll.  This time they took their goofy anti-Christ question nationwide, but they also included another candidate for the title…

“We also took a look at the Anti-Christ question nationally and found that a pretty similar number of voters are willing to go so far as to hang that label on either Obama or Bush. 10% of voters say they think Obama is the Anti-Christ with 11% unsure and 8% say the same of Bush with an equal 11% unsure.”

OOOPS!  Somehow, Rachel Maddow and Frank Schaeffer didn’t get together to conduct a powwow of bile on this one…  Looks like both villages could have their share of idiots—and some of them are pollsters.

Actually, I’d like to see a crosstab of this question to find out how many people answered “Yes” to both, but 6% of self-identified Republicans supposedly said that Bush new about 9/11 in advance and 3% answered that he is the anti-Christ.  (5% of Democrats said the same about Obama.)  Try to find some logic there

Remember this the next time you hear a story in the mainsteam media about a poll that “reveals” how stupid people like you are.

Memo to PPP.  Next time ask, “Do you think we are idiots for asking this question?”  Headline, “95% of Americans think Public Policy Polling is Staffed by Idiots.”

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79 Comments
  1. September 27, 2009 4:40 pm

    Where’s it say they “must be excluded from American political life?”

    • Drew Stroikus permalink
      September 28, 2009 4:04 am

      This pretty much says that the eveangelicals should be excluded from politics, along with the entire party they affiliate themselves with…

      “SCHAEFFER: You don‘t work to move them off this position. You move past them. Look, a village cannot reorganize village life to suit the village idiot. It‘s as simple as that. And we have to understand, we have a village idiot in this country, it‘s called “Fundamentalist Christianity.”

      And until we move past these people—and let me add as a former lifelong Republican—until the Republican leadership has the guts to stand up and say it would better—it would be better not to have a Republican Party than have a party that caters to the village idiot, there‘s going to be no end in sight. The next thing they‘ll do is accuse Obama of being the anti-Christ and then who knows what comes next on and on it goes.”

  2. David Forsmark permalink
    September 27, 2009 4:48 pm

    “You don‘t work to move them off this position. You move past them… until we move past these people.. until the Republican leadership has the guts to stand up and say it would better—it would be better not to have a Republican Party than have a party that caters to the village idiot” etc, etc, unless you think what he means is that the “fifth column of insanity” who are “dangerous neighbors” should join the Democratic Party? After all, the Democrats ARE generally the party of fifth column types…

  3. September 27, 2009 5:18 pm

    This is a fantastic post, David. Just excellent work. I laughed out loud multiple times reading it.

    • Swemson permalink
      September 27, 2009 8:05 pm

      Damn… this one’s going to be tough for me…

  4. Douglas permalink
    September 27, 2009 7:16 pm

    Zinger at the end was worth the price of admission.

    That’s why you’re Dave and everyone else isn’t.

  5. Paul Cooper permalink
    September 27, 2009 7:54 pm

    Thanks for writing this David. I saw that interview when it happened and Franky upset me. I almost wrote a blog about it. I’m glad I didn’t as you have done a far better job than I would have. It is so sad to watch Frank make a fool of himself and dishonor his father – who was a great and wonderful man – a real giant of American Christianity.

  6. David Forsmark permalink
    September 27, 2009 8:37 pm

    Thanks, Paul. I reviewed a lot of Frank’s criticism of how fundamentalists view the arts favorably, and interviewed him after he wrote his book on joining the Orthodox Church and lectured here in town. I also loved his first book Portofino, which I thought dealt affectionately with the characters that were obviously based on his parents, even while admitting their flaws. So, this is my penance for doing my tiny part to encourage him, I guesss.

  7. David Forsmark permalink
    September 27, 2009 8:52 pm

    A buddy of mine, Doug Buck, just sent me this about Daddy Rebellion Syndrome.

    Back when he still occasionally wrote things with some wit and wisdom, Garrison Keillor, the genial down-home Minnesota Democrat Farm and Labor Party Marxist, and writer of the over-praised Prairie Home Companion had a pretty terrific piece about the cost of overdoing the daddy rebellion thing. The rebellious son, fancies himself the new Martin Luther, and composes his own 95 Theses to nail to his father’s door. Numbers 74-77 sound like the artiste formerly known as Franky:

    74. You misdirected me as surely as if you had said the world is flat and north is west and two plus two is four; i.e., not utterly wrong, just wrong enough so that when I took the opposite position–the world is mountainous, north is east–I was wrong, too, and your being wrong about the world and north made me spend years trying to come up with the correct sum of two and two, other than four. You gave me the wrong things to rebel against. My little boat sailed bravely against the wind, straight into the rocks. Your mindless monogamy made me vacillate in love, your compulsive industry made me a prisoner of sloth, your tidiness made me sloppy, your materialism made me wasteful.

    75. I wasted years in diametrical opposition, thinking you were completely mistaken, and wound up living a life based more on yours than if I’d stayed home.

    76. Because you always went to bed at ten, I stayed up half the night, chainsmoking (you were opposed to cigarettes), drinking straight gin (you didn’t drink), and, given time, might have cut off my arm, it being yet another thing you would never have done.

    77. I wasted some good years thinking proudly that I wasn’t anything like you. Having grown up with ugly wallpaper, I painted all my walls off-white and thought I’d finally arrived. Bought a white couch, yours having been purple. My place looks like February.

    • September 29, 2009 6:54 am

      I love your writing David, and David Swindle’s as well. I am going to stop commenting though. When the more fanatical elements of any argument, on either side, take over the “comments”, it sure does tend to clog the old in-box. Reminds me of the way the right-to-life group took over the local tax tea party blog. Come on, ladies and gentlemen, I wish you’d try to focus.

      • Jack Hampton permalink
        September 29, 2009 7:02 am

        Betty
        I like Mr. Swindles writing as well. I am looking forward to a coming book. Where do we find your email address?

        • September 29, 2009 7:44 am

          When writing a comment you can ask to be copied on any further comments related to the same topic.

  8. September 28, 2009 2:03 am

    This guy Frankie sounds like the “preacher’s kid” out of a huge classroom full of like-minded baby boomers. Is this attitude not just another overblown example of all the “reject authority” types from that bloated miserable group? So many of my contemporaries still haven’t gotten past “don’t trust anyone over thirty”, well into their sixties. Yuck.

  9. Bud permalink
    September 28, 2009 3:25 am

    Maddow and Schaeffer need to get over themselves and face the fact that they must face a holy and righteous God, and this is a fact that will not go away. See, facts are stubborn little creatures and they will not go away! God will laugh when their calamity comes, as He always will have the last laugh, and that is a fact. (Proverbs 1:24-26). I repeat the word”fact” for emphasis.

    • Swemson permalink
      September 28, 2009 10:25 am

      How about showing us some empirical proof that supports those “facts” of yours ?

      • Steve R permalink
        September 28, 2009 11:19 am

        How about you showing US some empirical proof that disproves them.

        • Swemson permalink
          September 28, 2009 11:59 am

          LOL

          I’m not the one making the ridiculous claims about the invisible man… you are

          And by asking me to do that, you demonstrate how profoundly ignorant and bigoted you trully are….

          YOU want ME to prove that an invisible man that I don’t believe exists, does in fact NOT exist ”

          Anyone who went through a basic freshman class in logic knows that you can’t prove a negative….

          The only pursuit more idiotic than proving that an invisible man exists, is trying to prove that he doesn’t…

          And BTW, you’re also making the same intellectual mistake that all religions loons make about atheists.

          Atheists don’t say that god does not exist…

          All we say is that WE have never seen ANY evidence to support the idea that he does…

          So once again sir… show me some evidence, SOME REAL EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE, and then we’ll have something to talk about, otherwise, go sell crazy somewhere else… I’ve heard it ALL before…

          • debrarae permalink
            September 28, 2009 7:02 pm

            One word for you …. TROLL

            • Swemson permalink
              September 28, 2009 8:33 pm

              And that’s you’re best argument against people who don’t believe in your fairy tales…

              Name calling….?

              Common.. you can do better than that !

  10. Jonathan permalink
    September 28, 2009 3:34 am

    Well, I must be a super genius because I’ve figured this Schaeffer guy out in 5 seconds. And I know that you are all slobbering to hear my take, since nobody else but me could possibly see the ploy at work here, it’s sooooooooo subtle and esoteric and well… not at all obvious.

    The Democrats are working overtime trying to convince the Republicans they need to dump one of their most traditional constituencies; Christians. This is, as Rush Limbaugh would say, aimed at giving the Republicans “helpful advice on how to win”, since we all know that Democrats are dying to see Republicans win elections.

    So, what this tells me is that Democrats are scared to death that they are going to lose big in 2010 and 2012, because conservatives are FIRED UP. They are scared to death that the next election is going to be a referendum on the Constitution, which could easily result in a big big Christian turnout.

    Beyond this, we can dismiss everything he says as Bill Maher miming. He’s angry about something and he’s getting revenge. I wonder if he thinks his own parents are stupid rednecks. How did HE somehow grow a bigger IQ one day and “see the light”?

    Lastly, I would say that Schaeffer wasn’t much of a student of the Bible either, if he and his mom believed that JFK was the Antichrist, even with the head wound. I won’t go into a detailed discussion here, but any 5th grader in my wife’s Bible Study could tell you why that theory is hogwash.

    Rejecting facts, indeed.

  11. Joseph White permalink
    September 28, 2009 5:21 am

    I‘m a church-going Christian, really brings up the question: Can Christianity be rescued from Christians? And that‘s an open question.

    Excuse me, but that’s a lot like asking if Islam can be saved from the Muslims. Speaking of which, did anyone see the million muslim prayer service on the national mall? Men on one side, women on the other, with the women all covered up so the weak men wouldn’t attack them?

    If Christians had gathered to pray and said, Men over here, women over there, Blacks over there, Illegals not allowed; the press would have been all over them, calling them racists. I’m starting to get the feeling that peace loving Christians are being singled out and being called cultists, while the real cultists (Muslims) are going to be given Sharia Law in our courts, and we’ll see more Honor Killings, wife beatings, and rapes of our women, in our country.

    In my opinion, this must be stopped. There should be no Sharia law in the United States, and if the muslims can’t accept that, then they can live back in the middle east.

    I am concerned that the country that was founded by Christians will eventually make it illegal to be a Christian, and we, the peace loving people, will have to pick up weapons and take our homes back.

    • winoceros permalink
      September 28, 2009 6:06 am

      It must be the loaves and the fishes, because they self-reported a crowd of 5000, which, like their previous attempt to rally Muslims to protest against terrorism (epic fail), means that it was probably more like 3000. But yes, that many forcibly segregated people in our country is a disgrace.

  12. Jonathan permalink
    September 28, 2009 5:24 am

    And, in listening to the video, uh, I know exactly what this guy’s issue is.

  13. Beverly Partain permalink
    September 28, 2009 6:31 am

    Much of the Bible, especially end times information, is open to interpretation. Some take everything literally, others see scripture as symbolic. Each is entitled to his or her opinion, and if you don’t share it…let it be. Is it harming you???? So interesting to see this man rip his parents to shreds for beliefs they held….Francis Schaeffer was and is still a major influence in Christian thought. My personal feeling….someday he will stand before his maker….and his story may change somewhat as he tries to explain the slander and disdain he laid at the feet of people of faith. If I recall this correctly….the Constitution guarantees the freedom of religion….where does he get off saying “these people must be eliminated”. Scary words from a person who “professes to be a Christian”. I wouldn’t believe him if he “swore on a stack of Bibles”. I smell a rat!

  14. September 28, 2009 7:46 am

    There are many individuals who are anti-Christ in consciousness.

    Having the identity fixation at the Crotch or Rectum instead of the Spiritual Heart, is an open gate to the Demonic forces and vibrations, that controls individual consciousness.

    Much of our battles on Earth, are due to the Principalities and Powers from the Astral level, that filter into the lower chakra, affects the endocryne system and controls consciousness.

    • Jack Hampton permalink
      September 29, 2009 6:28 am

      Really?

  15. choppie permalink
    September 28, 2009 8:26 am

    How can he call main stream media main stream?? Hasn’t it been proven that what he calls a ‘sub-culture’ is actually mainstream? Perhaps they were the silent majority for too long, but their voices are finally being heard, and that scares the left to death! Now they are grasping at straws to make themselves relevant, and in so doing are really making fools of themselves.

    • Jonathan permalink
      September 28, 2009 11:00 am

      That exactly why the left is trotting out all the “Frankies” and “Rachels” they can lay their left hands on, choppie. They desperately fear an awakening of that silent majority, given what they’ve witnessed on the health care debate and in the reaction of the right to President Obama.

      Whenever the leftists give advice to the GOP on winning elections, we know they are scared to death. Now of course, we admit the moderate GOP will want to embrace their philosophy of course, but that’s where determination comes in.

  16. MMM permalink
    September 28, 2009 8:46 am

    Frank, hubris and pride have nullified your message. You are intellectually dishonest about the political right, while being patently accurate about the mistakes of the American evangelical community. They are two separate and distinct worlds. Be combining them, as did this corrupt poll and Maddow’s use of it, you compared apples to oranges.

    You lost me Frankie, as a customer. I may share your religous convictions, but not your political ones. And I vote with my pocketbook.

  17. Michaelle Maloney permalink
    September 28, 2009 8:47 am

    Maddow(Madcow) declared that white is black and black is white. People like her have no business in politics because they are conceited and wise in their own eyes-but universal morons. She would be more productive if she had duct tape on her mouth. The bible is not of any private interpretation, 2 peter 1:20-it interprets itself- even though there are people running around interpreting it to fit their own rules. Unfortunately, this is common in our culture.

  18. Winnie Hines permalink
    September 28, 2009 9:33 am

    I was very saddened and sickened to listen to what “Franky” said. His Mom and Dad must be turning over in their graves so to speak. They would be mortified and horrified if they could see and hear their son today. Francis Schaffer was an amazing Christian and writer, and so was his wife.

    It is truly a tragic day when a son turns his back on both his mother and father the way he has done. Someday, and I am saying this as a right-wing conservative, he is going to stand and face God and give an accounting of his life just as his mother and father did, and as we all do and I am afraid his life will not stand up to the test. He says he is a church going christian, well there many who say that but the christian part is missing, they think going to church makes them a christian..NOT SO!!! My going into a car dealership does not make me a car. lololol (not really funny)……May God have mercy on him!!!!!

    • Jonathan permalink
      September 29, 2009 3:19 am

      And to think he may have done it all for money. Thirty pieces of silver?

  19. Jack Hampton permalink
    September 28, 2009 11:01 am

    Yep what Mr. Swindle said. Superb work.

  20. Jack Hampton permalink
    September 28, 2009 11:13 am

    Some very fine work I have read Mr. Forsmark. I live among a great many fundamentalist christians being from the south. They are decent and good people for the most part that rush to help if needed and give generously to food kitchens and do a lot of volunteer work. I know from my previous profession and studies that I have read during that time christian young people are less likely to get in trouble and involved with drugs if involved in there church. Of course there are exceptions to every rule.

    • Jonathan permalink
      September 28, 2009 1:36 pm

      True. Real life is always more multifaceted than the liberals try to portray.

      Besides being decent, a great many “fundamentalists” are not truly fundamentalist in the original sense of the word. Namely, they don’t necessarily accept all the tenets of 6000 year young Earth creationism. Rather, a great many viewpoints exist within Christendom at large, and within the fundamentalist segment as well. For example, my wife teaches in a private Christian school that officially espouses the 6000 year position. But, she does not endorse that to her students in class; and many of THEM come from families that don’t embrace it either. What my wife does is present all the major beliefs to them for study and discussion.

      The entire leftist theory of a “right wing theocracy conspiracy” is silly in the extreme, owing to the very decentralized nature of Protestant Christianity. You could not find 10 individual Christians in this country who could agree on a theocratic structure, much less 10 denominations. It shows they have a fundamental lack of knowledge or a psychological block when it comes to their understanding of the dynamic. Whichever, it works in our favor. Let Rachel and Frank persist in their disinformation. It works in our favor provided we begin to capitalize on it.

  21. David Forsmark permalink
    September 28, 2009 12:15 pm

    Thanks, Jack!

  22. chuckwagonchuckie permalink
    September 28, 2009 6:06 pm

    Sounds like Mr. Schaeffer has a few screws loose in his head. The Religious Right has been a thorn in the side of the Marxist in the Democratic party since they started resisting their march to authoratarian socialism,abortion and gay marriage. The CHURCH is organized and influential if PASTORS speak out. Shutting them down by any and all means stops their ability to resist the Democrats. The Leftward movement of the Republican Party toward the one party state has been slowed by SCHAEFFERS Village Idiots,of which he was a part until his conversion.
    The Anti-Christ is a part of all Christain Denominations but not all go as far as some in NAMING NAMES and EXACT DATES which is not BIBICAL. This whole thought is just another way to marginalize all Christians until the new CZAR of RELIGION takes over and dictates what is acceptable and what worship form is permissable. The “Village Idiots” will certainly be shown their” LIGHT.”

  23. debrarae permalink
    September 28, 2009 7:05 pm

    This is a excellent article. Thank you for posting it Dave. And yes, it is just one more attack on anyone who dissapproves of the Leftist agenda.

    So sadly, it doesn’t surprise me in the least that these two ‘men’ (no I will NOT call them ‘gentlemen’) have no shame in attacking people simply because they don’t agree with those values.

  24. David Forsmark permalink
    September 28, 2009 11:11 pm

    Deb, I’m pretty sure that Rachel Maddow claims to be a woman… though I would like to know if anyone has ever seen Rachel and Ron Reagan Jr. in the same place at the same time… hmmm.

    • Jack Hampton permalink
      September 29, 2009 6:36 am

      Damn
      The resemblance is amazing.

    • debrarae permalink
      September 29, 2009 6:51 am

      Sorry didn’t have my glasses on ……….

  25. Jonathan permalink
    September 29, 2009 3:16 am

    Is it possible that Frank Schaeffer is the anti-David Horowitz?

    Schaeffer is the son of the man credited with inspiring and fomenting the Religious Right, so perhaps he feels the need to validate himself as born again leftist by being really, really bad. His pendulum swings radically to the opposite end of the mental arc with a mighty swish. Now the zealous convert, willing to savage his own parents’ legacy, displays his “insider knowledge” and authenticates himself as an ex-fundy with a “gravitas” that is beyond criticism and dispute.

    As a minor media darling, Shaeffer successfully drums up publicity for his books, using the Larry Flynt Hustler Magazine style of over-the-top dramatics.

  26. Jack Hampton permalink
    September 29, 2009 6:14 am

    If you note above Swenson’s comment calling Steve R ignorant and bigoted and insulting by his reference to the invisible man. SteveR had not directed his comment at Swemson but was responding to the post by David Forsmark. Steve R’s response asking Swemson to disprove that God exist did not merit those kind of insults Steve has faith and that is the basis of Christianity Swemson goes on and makes reference to crazy in other words anyone who believes in God is crazy. Steve R nor any other Christian is obligated or do they need to prove anything to Swemson or any other atheist. Christianity is about faith based completely on faith the instruction book explains that and speaks to us about it often even mentioning “So much as the faith as a mustered seed” but Swemson is more of a reactionary than anything else where people that believe in God are concerned and is motivated it appears by bitterness and hatred of anyone that dares mention there faith mostly Christian faith. He seems to believe he is persecuted by Christian’s maybe he was I hope not. It would take a legion of Psychiatrist to get to the bottom of this malady. We are as Christians obliged and should pray for him.

    • Swemson permalink
      September 29, 2009 11:43 am

      Don’t waste your time Jack…

      IF you could read the entire thread with an open mind, something you obviously lack, you’d see that your take on my motives is totally off base.

      What I objected to, was not the fact that he’s a christian, but the way that he characterized his “beliefs” as FACTS

      “Maddow and Schaeffer need to get over themselves and face the FACT that they must face a holy and righteous God, and this is a FACT that will not go away. See, FACTS are stubborn little creatures and they will not go away! God will laugh when their calamity comes, as He always will have the last laugh, and that is a FACT. (Proverbs 1:24-26). I repeat the word”FACT” for emphasis.”

      Before 9/11, everyone bought into the idea that criticizing religion was forbidden, because for some reason the subject was “holy”, which meant that we had to RESPECT people’s religious beliefs no matter how absurd they are…. Since 9/11, when we witnessed the ultimate extreme horror that religious thought is responsible for in human society, I believe that its time for people with rational minds who have been laughing under their breath at the antics of fundamentalists in ALL religions for decades, to stand up and loudly proclaim the obvious truth, that the emperor hasn’t any clothes.

      I didn’t challenge his religion per se, I challenged the bombastic and pompous way in which he referred to his BELIEFS as if they were SCIENTIFIC FACTS.

      And then you start parroting back the same old standard BS about people who don’t believe as you do. You NEVER even consider debating the merits of the issue, you just go attack the person making the claims, and accuse me of being the bigot who hates people who disagree with him, when in fact it is you, not I who is the one filled with hatred and loathing for anyone who dares to make you challenge your allegedly “holy” beliefs… Seems almost identical to the far left calling anyone who disagree with them a racist…

      “Swemson is more of a REACTIONARY than anything else where people that believe in God are concerned and is motivated it appears by BITTERNESS AND HATRED mostly Christian faith. He seems to believe he is PERSECUTED BY CHRISTIANS maybe he was I hope not. It would take a legion of Psychiatrist to get to the bottom of this malady.

      What really pisses me off lately is hearing people claim that the only way to defeat the 7th century barbarians who are trying to kill us all, is by getting down on our knees with our heads bowed, and praying to our invisible friend to conquer the invisible friend of the mullahs….. See another parallel here folks…”

      Our country is going bankrupt from the absurd spending spree that the governments been on, and yet they porpose that the solution to the problem is more govt spending…

      We’re being hunted by 7th century religious fanatics & barbarians who want to kill everyone who doesn’t bow down to their god, and our religious fruitcakes are screaming that the only thing that will save us is praying to OUR god to smite theirs…

      When are you going to have the stones too admit to yourself that it is RELIGION ITSELF that is the malignancy behind almost all of the horrors that are inflicted on man throughout the centuries…

      It’s the 21st century folks, man’s infancy is over, and it’s time that WE ALL grew yo and opened our eyes to reality, and all of the extraordinary possibilities that the universe is opening up to us as we continue to answer more and more o the real questions that you previously answered by pointing to an invisible man as your explanation and excuse for all of your childish fairy tales and superstitions.

      And if you really want to understand where I’m coming from, take a look at the last two posts between Denise and I at an earlier Newsreel blog:

      http://newsrealblog.com/2009/09/26/from-the-pen-of-david-horowitz-september/#comment-10159

      Although it tough for you to see it now, there’s far more that we have in common that what divides us.

      Peace !

      • Jonathan permalink
        September 29, 2009 12:49 pm

        Swemson,

        Jack is correct. If you would just calm down and do some self-critique of your statements before espousing them with such blind ferocity, you would come to the same conclusion that some others have come to… that you really aren’t being rational.

        For example, I stopped taking you seriously here:

        “Before 9/11, everyone bought into the idea that criticizing religion was forbidden…”

        This is a patently ludicrous statement. After that, you went to the extreme end of the Jim Jones scale.

        Peace

        • David Forsmark permalink
          September 29, 2009 1:20 pm

          Swenson:
          I do generally think people over-react to you on here, and you return the favor. Jonathan is the voice of reason on this point.

          • Swemson permalink
            September 29, 2009 2:50 pm

            David;

            I must respectfully disagree..

            My entire purpose in these posts is to point out how much religious thinking has in common with far left progressive thinking.

            The main strategy of the far left whenever anyone challenges them is to attack them calling them hate mongers, bigots, and every other vile word they can think of…

            That’s exactly what’s been happening to me here, every I make one of my intentional wisecracks when someone starts one of the common evangelical rants. Every single time I do that, I’m immediately attacked and called a bigot, a hate monger, or mentally deranged in some manner… WHY ? Because I disagree with them.

            Whenever I say how I feel about religion, I’m attacked in this manner, and NOT ONCE has anyone ever responded to my ideas, and tried to argue them in a sane, rational and courteous manner…

            The similarity between the two groups is SO obvious, I’m surprised that more of the smart folks here get what I’m doing right away. The one simple reason why the far left progressives, and the religious right do this, is because they have ZERO rational arguments or evidence to support their absurd claims, so they resort to the same tactic.. attacking the messenger himself.

            If you want proof of where I’m coming from, please look at the last several posts between Denise and I on the following recent blog:

            http://newsrealblog.com/2009/09/26/from-the-pen-of-david-horowitz-september/#comment-10159

            Start about 5 or 6 entries prior to the last exchange, and you’ll see exactly what I’m talking about. Denise made the same criticisms of me that Jack and Jonathan made, & after a few good exchanges, she began to see what I was really trying to express as in the following words addressed to her:

            “I admit to being intentionally confrontational on the issue.. I’m trying to stir up the debate, not to put people down, but to help people understand that we have much more in common than that which divides us…”

            I’m confident that if all of the folks who HATE me so violently read them with an “open mind”, they’ll see the same thing that Denise realized…

            FS

            PS: I’m the one advocating for rational thought, rather than blind religious faith…..

            Hmmm ?

            Who’s the voice of reason here ?

      • Jack Hampton permalink
        September 29, 2009 1:34 pm

        Swemsom
        I never waste time when praying I am able to pack a lot into the prayer so adding you is no problem. But my statement stands and on a very good foundation your venom was unwarranted. I will also take this oppertunity to let you know that you are not the only person that has suffered or that is outraged by the vile attack on our country. You are one of many. You are not gaining any ground by your misguided anger and hatred. Because the man stated his faith is fact is not uncommon but what is unwarranted was your verble assault. I also assure you that I do not simply depend on God’s hand ” he helps those that help them self” I spent eighteen days short of two tours in Vietnam and after that sought out and served FFJ warrants on over two hundred hardcore felons so I assure you I did not just depend on prayer alone but there was one on my mind very often and prayers of thanks. You can type all day and still your hate and bitterness comes across like a laser. Till you reconcile that your life will continue to be miserable. I will be praying for that to be resolved in your life as well. You see I am an expert on it because I need a lot of forgiveness my self. God Bless.

        • Swemson permalink
          September 29, 2009 3:15 pm

          Jack;

          If you read the posts between Denise and I that I provided a link to above, I’m sure that you’ll quickly understand that you’ve completely misjudged my intentions….

          There’s zero anger, hatred or bigotry in me (well other than for radical Islam of course).. I’m simply trying to get people who accept things “ON FAITH” to understand that there are other ways to arrive at the same conclusions…, the vast majority of which I’ll bet we totally agree upon…

          Thanks for your service BTW: What outfit were you with ?

          I joined the Marine Corps in 68′, but didn’t go over to early 69′.. my MOS was 4631 (Still Combat Photographer)

          • Jonathan permalink
            September 29, 2009 4:06 pm

            SWEMSON!

            You’re a military photographer? Well, no wonder you can get crotchety and be hard to get along with.

            Air Force Combat Camera over here! I’m an 8184 or a 2321 before they changed the codes. My era was 80s and 90s. But maybe you photographed my Dad in Vietnam. I worked with the Marines a lot on various assignments, most notably in Somalia. On the whole, I like the Marines a lot more than the Army, but I took pictures of all of ’em.

            Semper Fi.

            • Swemson permalink
              September 29, 2009 4:24 pm

              Jonathan;

              I went to basic photography school at Lowery AFB in 68′.. My dad had me souping film when I was 8 years old in darkroom in the our basement.. He was a fashion photographer before enlisting in 1941′ and then an army photographer in WWII,.. I still have an incredible collection of his work from Anzio, Salerno, North Africa & Germany.. etc…

              Most of my time in Nam was spent traveling around doing photo stories for “Leatherneck” & others on individual Marine units… I even did stories on the Marine detachments on out carriers in the Gulf, & after getting totally blasted one night with some SEALS on board one of them, they took me out waterskiing on one of their assault RIB’s & then inducted me into the “Tonkin Bay Yacht Club”. I still have the patch.

              My only real contact with AF photogs was in the labs processing 9″ roll film from aerial recon.. what did you shoot & what equipment did you use ?

              Oooh Raahhh !

            • David Forsmark permalink
              September 29, 2009 5:06 pm

              THERE! See how we bring people together on this site? Thank you BOTH for your service and the spirited debate.

            • Swemson permalink
              September 29, 2009 6:19 pm

              Thank YOU David… for providing us with this wonderful forum in which to explore different ideas…

              Your comment about bringing people together ties directly in with the theme of what I’ve been trying to say and do here… and that’s that Religion tends to push people apart. Christians, Moslems, Jews, and I’ll bet even the Druids have only ONE thing really in common, and that’s that they all KNOW, beyond any doubt, that their god is the one true god. Their absolute certainty about this is so dominating an influence in their lives, that there’s NEVER even any room for questions about it in their minds.

              IMHO, the only foundation that ALL people can use together, to build a moral and ethical code upon, and to serve as an organizing principal for a strong and peaceful society is reason and logic. And there’s no conflict here, because it’s easy to validate ALL of the same moral and ethical principles of our founding fathers through PURE logic & reason. If it can help us, what different does it make in the end, if we defend our lifestyle on the basis that it’s the only rational way to live, rather than saying that we live this way because that’s what god demanded of us ? We’re still on the same team, living by the exact same principles and rules, and it could REALLY do wonders for America right now in one very obvious way:

              One of the primary tools that the left uses against us is religion itself…Just like nazi’s used anti-semitism to get the German people to fall into line, the left does a version of that today. They didn’t attack Sarah Palin over her resume, they couldn’t because her resume was FAR more impressive that O’s.. They made a public laughingstock of her because of all of her forthright talk about her religious and moral principles, and look at how eagerly their supporters lapped it up… One of the things that the religious right is going to need to come to grips with is the fact that religion’s influence over mankind is slowly and steadily decreasing as each generation passes by.

              Never in a million years however, would I ask Sarah Palin, or anyone else on the right in the political arena to change their religious beliefs, but I DO believe, that if the Republican party could take abortion & gay marriage out of the political debate for awhile, and devote ALL of their efforts in the next two elections to discussing the most dangerous problems we’re facing today (Socialism and radical Islam) , then a sufficient number of intelligent folks on the left will unquestionably switch their votes to the Republicans, especially as they see the ever growing evidence of the damage that the current administration is inflicting on our country and on ALL of her people. People to whom religion is SO important, simply have to ask themselves, what kind of government will be more protective of their rights… If putting away their anti abortion signs will help us get rid of this bunch of dishonest secular gang of thugs, how can they possibly say no? Even if we only pick up 1 or 2 percent of the vote by de-emphasizing religious issues for a while, that can VERY easily be the margin that we need for victory… This fight is simply too damn important for us to leave ANYTHING to chance…

              I think we’re on our way to possibly taking back congress in next year’s election, but we can’t afford to be complacent and underestimate the enemy. They have HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of our dollars to use to BUY as many votes as they need in every critical election, and with the lawyers behind them, and their control over the judiciary, we’re facing an uphill battle indeed…

              We should make it our business to raise 5 or more times the amount of money that we did in the last election, so that we can STRONGLY support all of the candidates running against the worst of the worst on the left, and we should be starting that campaign NOW. I think we can do that, because I doubt that any of us would hesitate to contribute FAR more money than we did last year once enough of us finally realize that the very freedom and liberty of our children’s and grandchildren’s future is resting on the outcome.

          • Jack Hampton permalink
            September 30, 2009 4:06 am

            I was 11b my first tour was with the 2nd 502 or as we would say 50duce 101st from 68-69 then same outfit from 70-71 I had 18 days left and was ready to do the duffel bag drag and a plane ride and was wounded on an operation called Lam Son 719 the ARVN invasion in to Laos. I was evacuated PhuBai then CamRanh Bay then to Japan I woke up at Ft. Campbell Kentucky. I was then placed on what was called TDRL or temperary duty retirement leave for a year before returning to active duty. I spent all my time in I corp and was at Camp Eagle just briefly spent time at Dong Ha and we would shelter at many of the forward Fire Support Bases 8 inch and 175 self propelled. Thought about going back for a visit then decided it would not be a good idea.

  27. Jack Hampton permalink
    September 29, 2009 6:23 am

    Joseph White
    I hate to be the one that tells you this but it is already happening here. We are living in very dangerous times.

  28. Jack Hampton permalink
    September 29, 2009 6:26 am

    Beverly Partain
    Also was there not something in the instruction book that said “Honor thy mother and father that thy days may be long? Looks like this guy failed in that one.

    • September 29, 2009 8:05 am

      My thought too Beverly. You begin to forgive your parents their failings when you start to see your own. It’s called maturity. You hope that your children will continue to love you despite those failings too. Schaeffer needs to be more circumspect. If his children follow his example, he might face the end of his life under harsh public ridicule too.

  29. David North San Diego permalink
    September 29, 2009 12:31 pm

    When Frank Schaffer left Evangelicalism for the Eastern Orthodox Church, as I had done ten years earlier, I was ecstactic. I too, was disillusioned with the so-called “fundamentalists.” I thought Frank would lead the way for many more who were seeking what I believe to be the “fullness of the Faith.” But this was on the “faith” level. I never realized what an ‘elitist’ Schaffer was, not only on matters of faith, but on politics as well.

    WHO DOES HE THINK HE IS? Many of us Eastern Orthodox Christians admire AND share the patriotism of our Evangelical bretheren.

    The more he opens his mouth, the more he makes a fool of himself. I guess Forrest Gump’s mom was right, “Stupid is as stupid does.”

  30. David Forsmark permalink
    September 29, 2009 1:05 pm

    Thanks for your comment, David, I was hoping to hear from someone from your viewpoint on this.

  31. September 29, 2009 1:17 pm

    Great piece, Dave. Os is right about Franky, and your ending reminds me of Norman Bates in his straitjacket at the end of Psycho! Scary.
    Franky makes no distinction, either, between various shades of evangelicals. There are Evangelicals and evangelicals (within mainline churches, say, Anglicans!) There are “progressive” evangelicals who are singing All Hail, Obama, and conservative evangelicals who are praying for Jesus to return quickly and get us out of this mess!

  32. Jack Hampton permalink
    September 29, 2009 1:46 pm

    Jonathan
    Very fine comment I wish I had your patients and way with words unfortunatly I do not

  33. Carolyn permalink
    September 29, 2009 5:13 pm

    I bet his dad would be really proud of his traitor son.
    /

  34. Jack Hampton permalink
    September 30, 2009 5:14 am

    I find myself the most unlikely defender of the faith as I am not perticularly pious but as obvious I completely disagree with Swemson. I have found most Christians to be the biggest supporters of Jewish people and the nation of Israel. This nation would not be what it is today had it not been for people seeking religious freedom. Alexis De Toucville said ” America will never be defeated as long as it maintains it’s faith in God” I have to agree people need the restraining had of a moral compus provided by faith in God. I do not count the 7th century barbarity of the terrorist as religion God is a moderating influence. As much as you may rage against God you might as well rage against and scream against the power of a hurricane you will not prevail something always brings people eventually back to God no matter how far they may wander. You can ridicule malign or in general try to bully people that believe in God but it will be to no avail as for asking for proof that was talked about when Jesus was approched by Satan who ask him “If you are the son of God then cast yourself down from this mountain and no harm shall come to you” Of course Jesus replied ” You do not tempt the Lord God. that is the point it is about faith of course you know that if you need proof you have no faith I do not need to tell you that. Despite all I have been through I have faith I know that God has preserved me on many occasions. I will draw my last breath knowing this and as a great bibical figure once said, My interpretation. “The very gates of Hell will not prevail against that belief.

    • Swemson permalink
      September 30, 2009 10:39 am

      Jack:

      “if you need proof you have no faith”

      If someone who has no faith, walks into a church & tells the priest that he’s searching for god and asks the priest for help, that statement may apply.. but it’s different in the current context…

      If someone who has no religious faith is having a serious conversation about how to defeat the Islamo-fascists, and someone enters the conversation and starts a biblical rant, quoting chapter & verse, about how we can only win by turning to OUR god in prayer it’s another story. In that case the atheist is perfectly entitled to say “WTF are you babbling about ?”

      I don’t attack religious folks. You’ll never see me holding an anti religion sign & heckling a religious crowd… but since 9/11, I can no longer sit by quietly and respectfully when that stuff is shoved in my face, and when it is shoved in my face, then I have every right to stand up and speak my mind.

      As I’ve said elsewhere here on Newsreel, my objective is to try to make conservatives understand that all of the right’s talk about gay marriage and abortion, hurts us at election time… The left didn’t become apoplectic about Sarah Palin because of her track record or politics, it was because of her religious beliefs which she boldly and openly talked about… I’m not criticizing her beliefs, I just want us to win the next few elections.. and if de-emphasizing religious issues for awhile, & taking that ammunition away from the liars on the left, can help us pick up a few points in the elections, then I think it’s a small price to pay if it helps us take our country back.

      You DON’T have to wear a huge cross, and put I love jesus signs on the back of your car to be a good christian.

      I honestly believe that if we can only keep our religious beliefs private for a while, we can prevail against the far left progressives and save our country.

      If I’m right, the reward is enormous…

      If I’m wrong, what do we really have to lose ?

      We’re in deep kimchee right now, and I say that we must use EVERY possible tool at our disposal if we’re to win this battle.

      • Jack Hampton permalink
        September 30, 2009 12:31 pm

        We will simply disagree and the democrats lost big ground during the second election of George W Bush because the left was pushing for homosexual marriage. The democrats won in 2006 because the Republican leadership was pushing for amnesty and the conservatives stayed home. When the Republican party abandons the principals that have always won elections for them they lose.

        As for my faith in God, Nothing created everything is a scientific impossibility. By the way were you ever at Danang near China Beach? I forgot to mention above it was 85th evac that I was sent to first and they shipped me south to CamRanh Bay.

        • Swemson permalink
          September 30, 2009 1:22 pm

          Jack;

          “Nothing created everything is a scientific impossibility.”

          I’ve made the same point in other posts, when I gave MY definition of god…

          It’s one thing to be spiritual, but an entirely different thing to talk about god as if he’s your golf buddy, and you know what he thinks and how he acts in all situations…

          Consider the law of causality for a moment….

          IMHO, the only rational definition of god is that “he’s the first uncaused cause”

          Whenever I hear PhD physics professors talking about the big bang theory, I always have the same thought….

          “So where the hell did all that stuff that went BANG come from ?”

          I’m pretty sure that there are questions that we’ll never be able to answer.. Historically, man has always answered such questions by attributing everything to god..

          In this modern age, with technology exploding so quickly all around us, I think that it’s far more intellectually honest to simply say:

          I DON’T KNOW !

          PS: Kerry only lost by a hair to W in 2004, and when the left talked about gay marriage, it did motivate some on the right to go out and vote… But it works both ways, and ALWAYS in the negative.. I don’t believe that many people simply vote FOR candidates whose beliefs are similar to their, as much as they vote AGAINST candidates who speak up about ideas they HATE…

          But I may be wrong….

          • Jack Hampton permalink
            October 1, 2009 12:59 am

            Swemson
            Evey poll taken shows the vast majority of the American people are just to the right of center. Every meat head talking head in that election talked about how the reaction to the push for homosexual marriage was a huge factor in that election. If it were possible to reconstitute Ronald Reagan and have him run in 2012 he would wipe out anyone that opposed him. The fact remains that nothing could have created everything. Are we to believe that there was a void and just out of nothing all the gases and elements came together to creat the big bang. Not gonna happen Gyrene (Fondly) said. If we have a real conservative run against Mobama he will be a one termer.

            • Swemson permalink
              October 1, 2009 12:44 pm

              Jack;

              “The fact remains that nothing could have created everything. Are we to believe that there was a void and just out of nothing all the gases and elements came together to creat the big bang.”

              I thought that I just said the same thing above.. I think the only difference between us on this central argument, is that I refer to it in scientific terms ““he’s the first uncaused cause” in a real sense acknowledging that something is (or was) probably out there, before the big bang, assuming that theory is correct of course.

              Religion, on the other hand, tends to anthropomorphize the concept, and then starts to tell us all sorts of things about him, what he wants, what he thinks, etc…etc…

              I understand that the idea of a god has been part of the psyche of mankind since before recorded history but yet, there are several blaring contradictions in the theory that have made many question it over the years… A good example to me is the incompatibility between the concept of free will and original sin. If we’re born with “original sin”, then we’re condemned to play the game of life with loaded dice, and we can’t possibly have free will…

              But I think you missed the point of the last part of what I said above

              “But it works both ways, and ALWAYS in the negative..”

              You’re right when you say that many conservatives were repulsed by the left’s advocacy for gay marriage… but it was the right voting AGAINST an idea that they hated. But the polls never showed how many voted FOR Kerry because they LIKED the idea of gay marriage….. because I believe the numbers are insignificant….

              Some on the left vote AGAINST the right, even though they’re actually conservative on economic issues and FOR a strong military, precisely because of all the talk about religious principles on the right, and I think that number may be 1 or 2% of the electorate at least… so, with the way that the far left has upped it attack on religious belief in recent years, I simply don’t want us to give them more ammunition….

              ALL I’m saying is that we must look at this election as a struggle to save our basic freedoms and liberties, and that if we restrict our political arguments to fixing the economy, destroying radical islam, and aggressively solving the illegal immigration problem… oh, and did I mention the ECONOMY !!!, then we stand a much better chance…

              The next to elections are a fight for our very survival… lets keep our eyes on the ball… this isn’t the time for a referendum on moral and ethical standards… It isn’t even about the moral and ethical principles of each side, it’s about the FACTS about what works and what doesn’t when it comes to managing our affairs of state !

              Right now, it’s more important for us to find an honest and capable COMMANDER in chief… than a MINISTER in chief !

              • Jack Hampton permalink
                October 1, 2009 1:23 pm

                Im assure you I am not looking for a Minister in chief, I would add that ll of our capable CIC’s have been very devoute men. Because you have faith does not mean you do not understand War. I know War.

                • Swemson permalink
                  October 1, 2009 5:46 pm

                  Jack;

                  I know that YOU’RE not looking for a Minister in Chief.. allow me a little poetic license please… And I know war too, and the old saying that there’s no atheists in foxholes… But I also know that that’s not true.. there are, & I was but one of many…

                  Patton was devout as were many great warriors….

                  All I’m asking is that once we pick our man, that we campaign for him based on his professional resume & qualifications relevant to his experience as a leader, and his intellectual accomplishments…

                  I truly believe that if we can pick a strong leader with a sound background of honesty, moral fortitude and integrity, that we’ll get MANY on the left who know how horribly wrong BHO is about economic and defense issues to vote for him, and that we’ll get MORE of them on our side if we leave religious issues out of the political debate…

                  When the media tries to bait our candidates by asking them about how they feel about issues like gay marriage and abortion, all they have to do is smile, and say:

                  “I think that our religious beliefs are private, should remain so, and should not be issues in this election. I think that we need to be talking about what has to be done to save America’s failing economy, and to make her stronger in the face of her enemies, and that’s what I’ll be focused on if I should have the honor of being elected President…. thank you very much”

                  The folks on our side, and that includes the religious right, will learn everything they need to know about him (or her) in the primaries, and I doubt that they would reject our candidate in favor of BHO, for the sole reason that he didn’t campaign on religious issues…

                  • Jack Hampton permalink
                    October 2, 2009 6:07 am

                    Some smart man made the comment “you cannot separate the public man from the private man. That still remains true today. When the next presidential election rolls around there will be a much more through vetting of the nominee than there was on the last one you can rest assured on that. Even BHO proclaimed his great faith. The candidates will be looked at in regard to that issue more acutely this time around because of the actions and deceit of BHO. The nominee’s faith will play a very large role as well it should the overwhelming majority of the American people want there leader to have that moral compass on this issue we will simply have to disagree but good luck.

  35. Jonathan permalink
    September 30, 2009 9:40 am

    SWEMSON!

    “My only real contact with AF photogs was in the labs processing 9″ roll film from aerial recon.. what did you shoot & what equipment did you use ?”

    I’ve been out now for about 15 years, mind you. I spent a few years in Air Force PA as a journalist, before I changed over to Combat Camera. In Vietnam, you would have known it as Aerospace Audiovisual Service, but it became Combat Camera in 1991.

    I spent a few years as a studio producer/director making scripted training videos and other high-end products before I went into the operational documentation side of the business. However, there were some notable doc assignments such as the photo of Manuel Noriega in handcuffs with the DEA agent and then Desert Storm.

    Air Force COMCAM guys had to cover all four branches in those days, plus any other project the government felt like giving us. After Desert Storm the other branches saw how vaulable it was and started slowly ramping up. General Schwartzkopf had a personal Air Force COMCAM photog who followed him around 24 hours a day in Iraq. The Army was sort of dismayed that they had to rely on the Air Force to follow their general around. I think all the branches learned something. In Bosnia back in 1993, the Air Force COMCAM was flying back seat missions in Navy fighter patrols because we were the only branch really qualified to do the COMCAM mission. We had to go to all sorts of schools to do the job. Lots of work for special forces too.

    In the early 90s, the Air Force was using Kodak digital cameras, MacIntosh powerbooks, portable satellite dishes, as well as every manner of film camera. We used both film and digital simultaneously. Film was the better medium, but it took time to develop and ship. Digital was lesser quality but transmittable immediately. From Somalia, I found myself sitting in the middle of a desert transmitting photos to the Pentagon with my suitcase satellite dish. You had to manually aim the dish and watch the meter to lock in on the satellite. Then you dialed the operator and paid $60 per hour. You can probably imagine how we managed to get our rolls of film back to the states for developing. By hook or crook, in classic military fashion. For video, we had satellite transmission capability as well.

    • Swemson permalink
      September 30, 2009 10:46 am

      Wow..

      Digital cameras & laptops…

      In the Corps, we had been using Nikons in the bush, but switched to the Pentax because it actually had better seals, & the humidity was getting into the Nikons & ruining them real fast… I still have an old “F” that saved my tail, when it took a tiny hit while hanging on my chest… and the folding 6X9 Voigtlander that took a BIG hit while in my father’s breast pocket at Anzio in the 40’s…

      Most people can’t even imagine the things I saw and photographed…

      • Jonathan permalink
        September 30, 2009 11:38 am

        Yep.

        I know when I got out that the photogs still prefered their film cameras. They were actually much more durable. The problem is though the digitals and videocams are off the shelf, high end models. They aren’t military hardened products. So, consequently, we had some problems in harsh environments like Iraq and Somalia. There are MOS’ for maintenance, but practically speaking, they maintain not repair. I’ve often thought the DoD should have talked to SONY and others about building more hardened cases for the cameras, or other improvements like that. But, generally, we just carried a few extras with us just in case. But photogs are very protective of their equipment anyway.

        • Swemson permalink
          September 30, 2009 11:47 am

          Always have been…

          When I shot things like medal award ceremonies, I carried a Bronica or a Rolli, and 2 35mm SLRs with about 4 lenses.

  36. Jack Hampton permalink
    September 30, 2009 12:12 pm

    Jonathan
    You may not have liked us but let me assure you that all the guys I served with loved the Air Force.

    • Jonathan permalink
      September 30, 2009 12:46 pm

      I worked with all branches of the service in my time. I looked at all of them as being my team. Besides, I come from a fourth generation military family on both sides. Most of my father’s side retired, from either the Army or the USAF. Two served in the Marines. We always had a lot of fun with it at family reunions. But, ultimately, we were all the same team.

      One Uncle of mine was an Army E-9 who ran a section in the induction center (MEPS) in Raleigh NC back in 1980 when I enlisted. When I showed up for processing, he told my Dad he was going to switch me over to the Army because I didn’t know a plane from a tank anyway. He wasn’t far from wrong.

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