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Witch-hunters and anti-Semites at the Village Voice

September 28, 2009

Voice%20Paraquat%20poster

I have many times pointed out that the left’s chief political contribution to American politics is witch-hunts. The left is always searching for the racist under every bed, or the sexist or the homophobe or the Islamo-phobe. This is because the left can’t really argue its case on the facts, and its political agenda is not to refute the opposition but to eliminate it. Consquently, every conservative who has the gumption to speak up has been called a racist by leftists at some point or other. By calling everyone who opposes them a racist, progressives have drained the term of all meaning and have insulted the memory of every black person who was ever abused because of his or her race.

So much for the preamble. It seems the Village Voice has noticed that I called out an incompetent black person, and since black people are part of the left’s Endangered Species Act, no black person can be regarded as incompetent, and so Horowitz must be a racist:

“Horowitz found another black guy to beat up: Marc Lamont Hill, who had been hired by Bill O’Reilly. ‘Hill is one of a community of black intellectuals promoted well beyond their abilities,” said Horowitz.'”

Read that carefully and you could easily get the impression that I said that all black intellectuals are promoted well beyond their abilities. What I actually wrote was that

“Hill is one of a community of black intellectuals — Cornel West and Michael Eric Dyson are two obvious others — promoted well beyond their abilities.”

A very different story. Notice there are no ellipses in the Village Voice account.

As it happens, this is the tail-end of the Voice story which is an attack on me as a Jew (surprise!):

David Horowitz encapsulated the general line in his headline: “Obama Attacks U.S.”

By this Horowitz meant that Obama bragged he had gotten the U.S. to “stop American torturers, close America’s torture chambers on Guantanamo, and leave Iraq (as though we were there for blood and oil).” As the first two actions would seem positive news to non-sadists, and the third won’t happen for another year (if then), perhaps “as an American and a Jew” Horowitz was most exercised by the President’s “attacks on Israel” — among these, Obama’s call to end the occupation of Arab lands. Horowitz didn’t mention that President Bush made a similar call last year.”

There are no torture chambers on Guantanamo. Israel does not occupy Arab lands; Bush’s statement is one of several disgraceful acts of his second term, and on the evidence here the Village Voice is part of the chorus calling for a second Holocaust to finish the job that Hitler started.

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43 Comments
  1. Paul Cooper permalink
    September 28, 2009 10:04 am

    I think we may be Village Voice’s favorite blog to read.

  2. LanceThruster permalink
    September 28, 2009 2:28 pm

    Those of the Right are no strangers to overheated rhetoric. I remember Sean Hannity bemoaning the lack of civility in political discourse. This from the side that denounce as traitors anyone whose nose was not firmly planted up Shrubya’s backside. It’s a tactic straight out of “Mein Kampf” to blame the other side for acts you commit (such as the Reichstag Fire, or today – voter fraud)

    I would like to see where the Village Voice is “calling for a second Holocaust to finish the job that Hitler started” but I’m sure Mr. Horowitz feels justified in this interpretation.

    I saw a panel talk on my campus years back on the Mohammad cartoon controversy with Mr. Horowitz and Yaron Brook, among others. Though as an atheist, I’m sympathic to rejecting religious dogma and their constant outrage over slights to their mythology, I was less than impressed by their demonization of all things Islamic, and also the unquestioned justifications for any act of Israeli aggression by Mr. Brook. Mr. Horowitz did get the better of a few students questioners who did not prepare as well as they might (one attacked his Campus Watch site without having ever read it).

    So, even on a position that I shared a similar view, his rhetoric was too extreme. This also goes for his denunciations of academics who might have views different from his. His black and white views on almost every subject remind me of the right’s own fundamentalism. There are strains of xian fundamentalists (Dominionism, Xian Reconstructionism – see: http://www.jewsonfirst.org/dominionism.html & http://www.publiceye.org/christian_right/dominionism.htm ) that want to have biblical principles implemented for our justice system. This would be as looney as one based on Sharia law, but as a homegrown fundy strain, they’re pretty much given a pass. Now *those* guys would have witch hunts that would actually think they could turn up some real witches!

    —-

    During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumb-screws, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.
    Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry…..There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain.

    Mark Twain – “Bible Teaching and Religious Practice,” Europe and Elsewhere

    • Swemson permalink
      September 28, 2009 7:39 pm

      NOTE: The preceding message was brought to you by TROLLS INC. proudly providing you with lies and distortions for the last 60 years… ROCK ON !

  3. Jack Hampton permalink
    September 28, 2009 3:00 pm

    I would reply to Lance Thrusters comment but why bother. I am still waiting for him to use the term World Jewery or Jew Bankers.

    Mr Horowitz
    Your comment in reference to the diservice that an article like that does to those that have suffered real racism some paying the price with there very lives is right on the mark. Congratulations on your observations and you are correct the accusation has lost a great deal of it’s sting.

    • LanceThruster permalink
      September 28, 2009 3:31 pm

      You might possibly mean “World Jewry” but then accuracy to detail does not seem to be the hallmark of a great many posters here. The “Jews on First” link is from a Jewish activist org defending the First Amendment (specifically church/state separation).

      I have altered my views on the I/P conflict post 9/11 thanks to a great many principled Jewish (and even Israeli) authors. Previously, I had accepted the official narrative of Israel being the “white hats” and their neighbors the “black hats” without question. Turns out the narrative is woefully one-sided (allowing people such as Mr. Horowitz the ability to talk in familar memes largely unchallenged regardless of the facts).

      —–

      “All critics of Jews should not be tagged as anti-Semites. We are not a nation of Christs, Spinozas, and Einsteins; that the Nazis are brutes does not make us angels … Criticism is not the same as hatred, and critics are not our enemies. The greatest friends of a people are not those who praise but those who honestly find fault. A people without criticism is either a dictatorship or a community so deeply embedded in smug self-satisfaction as to be on the road to decadence.”

      — William Zuckerman, Jewish author [written before World War II,
      in Goldstein, D., p. 119]

      • J Williams permalink
        September 28, 2009 7:18 pm

        From your inserted Zuckerman quote: “The greatest friends of a people are not those who praise but those who honestly find fault.” As an atheist you have no foundation for defining honesty or fault. All would be subjective and widely interpretive. So as such – All opinion and critique is equally just because we base it upon….nothing.

        • LanceThruster permalink
          September 28, 2009 8:20 pm

          Nothing about honesty that is subjective. You may think that paying lip service to your invisible Sky Daddy somehow bestows character on you that you don’t otherwise possess but you’d be mistaken. All ethics are human derived; even for those who claim “revealed knowledge” as the source of theirs. In fact, the irony is thick as so many in here ridicule and reject the claims of Islam as being a basis for absolutes truth while at the same time dismissing anyone who might reject their own claims of absolute truth.

          Next you’ll be wanting to bash someone’s head against a rock for incorrectly calculating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The longing running wars between various factions of xianity throughout history have been fought over details just as esoteric. The *murder* of people for accusations of heresy spits in the face of your idiotic and ignorant claim of divinely revealed ethical standards that flawed human beings could follow without misinterpretation. As they say in technical manual writing, if the material is not able to be clearly understood, it is the fault of the writer, not the reader.

          ——

          “I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~ Stephen F Roberts

          • J Williams permalink
            September 29, 2009 9:22 am

            The truth is – your atheism has left a void that is now filled with hate. I can feel it in your writing and others can sense it in reading. It is eating at you and destroying the joy and contentment that I believe you seek. You simply can’t accept that others believe in God and you don’t. You are lashing out at their belief even though it does neither you nor them harm. Where does this hatred come from?

            • LanceThruster permalink
              September 29, 2009 11:32 am

              Armchair psychologist now, eh JW? My atheism has left me with the ability to chart my own course in life rather than worrying if I’m pleasing some vague and nebulous entity that has no more moral character than your garden variety human (another bit of “damning” evidence of the human origins of said entity). I have no problem accepting that others have faith to whatever extent they do. It’s when they feel compelled to act as proxies for their presumed supernatural entity. You are no different than Osama except maybe by matter of degree. You are of a mindset that you have the truth, and that those rejecting you supposed trutyhs are somehow inferior and therefore suspect. You know absolutely nothing about my background but feel you possess some sort of insight on my godview.

              Is it entirely sad though not surprising that you are oblivious to the dangers irrational thinking poses to us all. There is harm by the believer’s continuing battle to have government sanction their mythology whether argued as tradition or the very foundation of our society as if without it their own faith would weaken. You can at least see that early actions of the church (whichever one is your “flavor” of truth) when they had more total control was abominable, don’t you? Or do you feel that murdering someone for not submitting to intimidation by religious leaders is laudable? Happened all throughout the history of the xian church. OT religious leaders also had a very brutal and draconian system as well. Those are your roots. The same mindset that claims to know the mind of god clearly enough to not concern themselves with the possibility of error.

              It matters not to me that you consider your foolishness wise, except that your insecurities force you to think your so-called revealed knowledge needs to be inflicted on those around you. When you cease trying to impose your nonsense on others, you will cease to be a potential threat except to yourself.

            • Swemson permalink
              September 29, 2009 1:16 pm

              Mr. Williams makes the same mistake as all bigoted religious loons make when confronted with someone who challenges their fairy tales and superstitions.. they accuse us of being the hate mongers…

              No sir… I don’t hate you… why should I ? You’re not a threat to me…

              It’s you sir who hate me, because I dare to challenge your idiotic childish ideas…

              I’m not lashing out at anything… you’re the one doing that…

              It’s time to grow up… we’re in the 21st Century, and all of your mystical nonsense is rapidly becoming obsolete…

            • Swemson permalink
              September 29, 2009 3:33 pm

              Mr. Williams;

              I owe you an apology sir.

              In you post above, you were apparently speaking to Lance, rather than to me… Perhaps you feel the same way about me though, & if that’s so, that’s OK… But I think the difference between my atheism and Lance’s hatred of just about everyone but himself is pretty self evident…

              In any event, I called you a religious loon, and I shouldn’t have, and for that sir, I am sorry…

              FS

        • GJ Tryon permalink
          September 28, 2009 10:10 pm

          So we may take it that the modern Chinese, for instance, or the ancient Romans, say, have/had no standard of honest dealing or critical appraisal? Plato wrote his masterpiece The Republic, and Aristotle his Ethics without any reference, much less allegiance, to your god.

    • ElanaSe permalink
      September 28, 2009 3:51 pm

      I had simmilar feeligs.
      “So, even on a position that I shared a similar view, his rhetoric was too extreme. This also goes for his denunciations of academics who might have views different from his. His black and white views on almost every subject remind me of the right’s own fundamentalism.”

      The person wrote so much without telling anything. Not a single detail or fact, all general phrases. And I always treat with a suspect people who quote others more often than express their own opinions beyond
      “Turns out the narrative is woefully one-sided” without any evidence supporting that claim.
      Pathetic.

    • Glenn Reynolds permalink
      September 28, 2009 5:23 pm

      Surely you jest, Jack Hampton. You’re waiting for Lance Thruster to use ‘World Jewry’, based on that post? Good grief, you can do better than that. It was Horowitz that brought in the extreme discourse of his detractors ‘calling for a second Holocaust.’ David does this for rhetorical effect, and because it pays dividends (financial backing from union-bashing, right-wing think-tanks like Scaife , while he charges $7000 a lecture). Seems to me David forgets the simple fact (actually he and Glenn Beck both intentionally distort the fact) that the Holocaust was a right-wing phenomenon. Of course, some knee-jerk will quickly respond with the usual: “Stalin was worse than Hitler”. Hey, that might even be so, but it then leads one to marvel that David was one of the Western Hemisphere’s last Stalinists in 1970.

      • Swemson permalink
        September 28, 2009 7:40 pm

        PUTZ !

      • In the know permalink
        September 29, 2009 8:02 am

        WHOA!!!!MAJOR DISTORTION ALERT!!!!

        Is anyboby else sick and tired of these “enlightened” liberals telling us the National Socialist Workers Party was a “right-wing enterprise”. I’m calling Ad Hominem. You guys can’t be that stupid so, logically you must be deliberately distorting the truth. Your comment is based on revisionist history. The leftist tactic of repeating a lie until it becomes “truth” in the vernacular sense is absurd. It reminds me of the movie adaptation of “Chicago” (weird coincidence?). You remember when Billy Flynn played the press into beleiving an “alternative” account of Roxies’ murder of her husband? Same concept, different theater. This one has more serious consequences though.

    • The Inquisitor permalink
      September 29, 2009 6:55 am

      You are quite right. There is no reason to bother. It is impossible to engage this windbag in reasoned discourse.

  4. September 28, 2009 5:49 pm

    The National Socialist Party (“Nazi”) was not “right-wing,” whatever that means, but left-wing – i.e., socialist, tyrannical socialist, like Communism, not democratic socialist. It differed from the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in being nationalist rather than internationalist, as the Soviet Union professed to be (but was not).

  5. Lonnie Kwartler permalink
    September 28, 2009 8:08 pm

    On a horizontal political spectrum, communism is on the left and nazism is on the right. On a political spectrum shaped as a horse shoe, the left and right nearly meet. Both extremes are totalitarian. A “good” Nazi can easily become a “good” Communist. The reverse is also true. During World War II, Arab leaders were allies of Hitler. Arab political parties and terrorist groups were inspired by and fostered by both Nazis and Communists. As for calling for a second Holocaust, for the Arabs who are still the undefeated allies of Hitler, it is not a new Holocaust that they seek, but a continuation of the same one that they participated in. To the extent that the Village Voice supports those Arabs, it is supporting their objective.

    • LanceThruster permalink
      September 28, 2009 8:45 pm

      You ignore the extent that the Zionists worked with the Nazis. I wonder why that is? Do you not know, or do you realize that such details might be inconvenient for those same Zionists who regularly demonize everyone else for associations they insist are reprehensible. The Arabs of the region were glad to have someone that challenged the control of the English (“The enemy of my enemy, etc…”) The US and Israel do exactly the same thing in palling around with some pretty unsavory characters as long as they support (or at least do not challenge) those interests.

      Why Saddam was our bestest bud (even though we were aware of his using our chem warfare stocks to gas his own people) before he magically became the next “Hitler.” Manuel Noriega also was allowed to run free as long as he gave our drug and gun running and money laundering cover since we were funding our assistance to other “freindly” dictators in Central and South America (with a little treasonous and illegal arms shipments to this same “evil empire” Iran to boot!!). Seems like you ratf*ckers feel you can get away with anything based only on…ummm….it’s OK when you do it. Same thing seems to apply to Zionists (who pioneered much terrorism in Palestine as they typically often tried to make Arabs take the blame for their false flag attacks [like what the Brits got caught doing in Iraq]).

      See “51 Documents:
      Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis
      ” by LENNI BRENNER ( http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html )

      [excerpt]

      Zionism convicts itself. On June 21, 1933, the German Zionist Federation sent a secret memorandum to the Nazis:

      “Zionism has no illusions about the difficulty of the Jewish condition, which consists above all in an abnormal occupational pattern and in the fault of an intellectual and moral posture not rooted in one’s own tradition. Zionism recognized decades ago that as a result of the assimilationist trend, symptoms of deterioration were bound to appear, which it seeks to overcome by carrying out its challenge to transform Jewish life completely.

      “It is our opinion that an answer to the Jewish question truly satisfying to the national state can be brought about only with the collaboration of the Jewish movement that aims at a social, cultural and moral renewal of Jewry–indeed, that such a national renewal must first create the decisive social and spiritual premises for all solutions.

      “Zionism believes that a rebirth of national life, such as is occurring in German life through adhesion to Christian and national values, must also take place in the Jewish national group. For the Jew, too, origin, religion, community of fate and group consciousness must be of decisive significance in the shaping of his life. This means that the egotistic individualism which arose in the liberal era must be overcome by public spiritedness and by willingness to accept responsibility.”

      By 1936, the Post ran a news flash, “German Zionists Seek Recognition”:

      “A bold demand that the German Zionist Federation be given recognition by the Government as the only instrument for the exclusive control of German Jewish life was made by the Executive of that body in a proclamation today. All German Jewish organizations, it was declared, should be dominated by the Zionist spirit.”

      Zionist factions competed for the honor of allying to Hitler. By 1940-41, the “Stern Gang,” among them Yitzhak Shamir, later Prime Minister of Israel, presented the Nazis with the “Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany.”

      Avraham Stern and his followers announced that

      “The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is of the opinion that:

      1. Common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO.

      2. Cooperation between the new Germany and a renewed folkish-national Hebraium would be possible and,

      3. The establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position of power in the Near East.

      Proceeding from these considerations, the NMO in Palestine, under the condition the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement are recognized on the side of the German Reich, offers to actively take part in the war on Germany’s side.”

      • Walt permalink
        September 28, 2009 9:04 pm

        Sorry, Lenni Brenner is nothing more than a Trotskyite, and not really a credible source for anything. You need to find a better source.

      • ElanaSe permalink
        September 28, 2009 10:24 pm

        Wow, buddy! It’s like you bring sources right from the David Duke’s site! Don’t you want to jump straight to the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” ?
        You’re one confused fella! Historical statements should be based on evidences and site the sources . But of course it’s a “secret memorandum” that’s only available to the notorious lefty and people like you will never bother to check…
        By the way, historians prefer not to divide politics to left and right on the straight line but rather to put it on the circle, where left and right go to the opposite directions from any given point, but eventually ideologically they meet that it’s hard to distinguish between their political definition. That’s the case with Hitler and Stalin.

    • In the know permalink
      September 29, 2009 8:39 am

      Wrong…and absurd. Government ownership of industry is a characteristic of Leftist governments. The “horizontal scale” is a sham anyways. The term left and right was coined in parliment to describe where MP’s sat according to their views. It has been adapted to describe ones political ideals respective to a particular issue. I theorize that most Leftists call NAZI’s rightwing because their personal ideologies actually lie far left of then NAZI’s. That, in my opinion, has much more sinister connotations…

  6. Jack Hampton permalink
    September 29, 2009 4:11 am

    You can spot a Jew hating anti-Semite most of the time even when they try desperately to hid it by using the word Zionist. If it were not so tragic and have such deadly results it would be humerous.

    • ElanaSe permalink
      September 29, 2009 5:52 am

      Oh no, Jack, it’s not hiding – it’s their authentic signature. Or just confused students who don’t bother to check (I’ve met people like that and even miraculously convinced them to review their statements).

  7. Brad Brzezinski permalink
    September 29, 2009 4:29 am

    I notice Village Voice used the phrase, “Arab lands.” That needs to lead to a discussion about which races are entitled to which lands. It’ll be fun.

  8. old white guy permalink
    September 29, 2009 6:37 am

    lonnie, there is no horizontal political spectrum. it is a circle. start at the top and go left or right and they both meet at the bottom and people suffer and are enslaved.

  9. The Inquisitor permalink
    September 29, 2009 1:47 pm

    Swemson, “I’m not lashing out at anything” No? “…I dare to challenge your idiotic childish ideas” What do you call that?

    I have avoided writing about this, because I share your some of your thoughts on economics and politics. But no more. Your boorish behavior gives atheists a bad name. You come across as someone who resents that his mother made him go to church. You’re 63 years old. Grow up and get over it.

    • Swemson permalink
      September 29, 2009 3:26 pm

      You ask: “what do I call that?”

      A simple statement of fact…

      I intentionally make wise cracks at religious ideas that some people post here just to stir up the debate…

      If you want to see where I’m REALLY coming from, please look at the last several posts between Denise and I on the following recent blog here at Newsreel:

      http://newsrealblog.com/2009/09/26/from-the-pen-of-david-horowitz-september/#comment-10159

      Start about 5 or 6 entries prior to the last exchange at the very bottom, and you’ll see exactly what I’m referring to. Denise made the same criticisms of me that other religious folks made, & after a few good exchanges, she began to see what I was really trying to say:

      You may not approve with my methods, but I think you’ll be surprised to see how deeply you’ve misunderstood my motives…

  10. Jack Hampton permalink
    September 29, 2009 1:51 pm

    J Williams
    You nailed it exactly. If you noticed his response it was more harsh accusatory and abusive language.

    • The Inquisitor permalink
      September 29, 2009 1:58 pm

      Jack, please accept my apologies to you and all persons of faith on behalf of better mannered atheists.

  11. Jack Hampton permalink
    September 29, 2009 1:58 pm

    The Inquisitor
    Good comment I have no hatred or bad feelings toward Swemson because of his belief system and it is obvious he is an accomplished writer which I am not. But from my experience in life I know bile when I see it and there was a catalyst for that. He is very wise on many issues but loses it because of his venom in regard to peoples faith.

  12. Jack Hampton permalink
    September 29, 2009 2:35 pm

    The Inquisitor
    Sir you owe me no apology what so ever. I do not expect that. But thank you for your kind thought.

  13. Revnant Dream permalink
    September 29, 2009 11:22 pm

    The World has already ghettoized Israel.
    The more it changes the more it stays the same. Only the props with culture & language change. Jew hatred is a spiritual sickness. I used to think its was madness, until I noticed its like no hate in history. The worst malefactors act like normal family men except in their irrational obsession of malice towards this people. Five times the tribes of men have tried to wipe out the Hebrew Peoples.
    Now groups like Village Voice are setting up the sixth.
    Its an ugly age we live in with Judenhaus has erupted like swine flu all over the Earth.
    The absurdity of an American President telling a sovereign DEMOCRATIC Nation where they cane settle or not is brazen beyond civility. Considering he’s always crying that no Country should tell another what to do.
    Not being Jewish I can only imagine the betrayal Israel feels as are a lot of ex allies these days like Poland, the Czechs, Honduras. The list grows daily .
    Excellent article Mr. David Horowitz. A pleasure to read.

    • LanceThruster permalink
      September 30, 2009 9:11 am

      One essay on the Israeli mentality regarding its neighbors was by Fredy Perlman.

      from: http://libcom.org/library/anti-semitism-beirut-program-fredy-perlman

      [excerpt]

      The trick of declaring war against the armed resistance and then attacking the resisters’ unarmed kin as well as the sur­rounding population with the most gruesome products of Death-Science; this trick is not new. American Pioneers were pioneers in this too; they made it standard practice to declare war on indigenous warriors and then to murder and burn villages with only women and children in them. This is already modern war, what we know as war against civilian populations; it has also been called, more candidly, mass murder or genocide.

      Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised that the perpetrators of a Pogrom portray themselves as the victims, in the present case as victims of the Holocaust.

      Herman Melville noticed over a century ago, in his analysis of the metaphysics of Indian-hating, that those who made a full-time profession of hunting and murdering indigenous people of this continent always made themselves appear, even in their own eyes, as the victims of manhunts.

      The use the Nazis made of the International Jewish Conspiracy is better known: during all the years of atrocities defying belief, the Nazis considered themselves the victimized.

      It’s as if the experience of being a victim gave exemption from human solidarity,
      as if it gave special powers, as if it gave a license to kill.

  14. Jack Hampton permalink
    September 30, 2009 11:55 am

    Ref was made by the troll in regard to Indian atrocities. It is possible he might be Ward Churchill? Next I wonder if we will hear the old saw about the military issueing small pox infected blankets which was a lie. The fact is that there were atrocities on both sides. This land was going to be settled and if not by western europeans then maybe later when by someone else possibly the muslims and the Indians could have been left to there tender mercies. You often hear of the Trail of Tears but not what really precipitated it. It is a little known event called the Ft. Mims massacre where over five hundred men women and children were slaughtered. My Great G G Grandfather helped remove the Creek Indians from Northern Alabama to Oklahoma after the RedStick War and died on the trial on the return of his third trip. He died in the winter and that is the only reason he was returned for burial. I have been to the cave where he would hid his family during uprisings. The worst thing that ever happened to the Indians was the damn reservations. It would have been better if they assimulated into the rest of society like the Cherokee of East Tennessee. I know that there was a couple of Indian villiages that atrocities tok place but it was not common policy of the Army to attack and destroy everyone or to intentionally target the women and children. I know it happened but it was not pravalent nor was it policy. Some people will believe any lie that the Indian was more spiritual and better conservatures of the land which was absolutly garbage they were simply people living the best way they could and conservation was not there main concern. Before the horse was introduced by europeans they would stampede whole heards of buffalo over cliffs to harvest a few leaving the rest to rot. Along comes the white man and hunts them for there hides almost to extinction leaving the carcas to rot. He was like the Indian simply a man of his time trying to survive.

    • LanceThruster permalink
      September 30, 2009 1:44 pm

      According the the sources cited here, the small pox bio-warfare charge does not appear to be apocryphal.

      See: Jeffrey Amherst and Smallpox Blankets – http://www.umass.edu/legal/derrico/amherst/lord_jeff.html

      Conclusion

      All in all, the letters provided here remove all doubt about the validity of the stories about Lord Jeff and germ warfare. The General’s own letters sustain the stories.

      As to whether the plans actually were carried out, Parkman has this to say:

      … in the following spring, Gershom Hicks, who had been among the Indians, reported at Fort Pitt that the small-pox had been raging for some time among them….

      An additional source of information on the matter is the Journal of William Trent, commander of the local militia of the townspeople of Pittsburgh during Pontiac’s seige of the fort. This Journal has been described as “… the most detailed contemporary account of the anxious days and nights in the beleaguered stronghold.” [Pen Pictures of Early Western Pennsylvania, John W. Harpster, ed. (University of Pittsburgh Press, 1938).]

      Trent’s entry for May 24, 1763, includes the following statement:

      … we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect.

      —-

      It’s ironic that you bring up a point of argumentation that I hadn’t made, make a pronouncement on the validity of that argument, and turn out to be in error regardless.

      —–

      Similarly, the accounts I’ve read indicated that part of drive to slaughter the buffalo wholesale was to deprive the Native Americans of a resource that afforded them means to live off the land independently, where instead it was desired to have the leverage to move them onto reservations and require outside assistance for their survival (even then, mass die-offs of reservation Indians occurred from starvation and succumbing to the elements).

      See: http://www.snowcrest.net/kirkrudy/texts/03-009-012.html

      Texts of the North American Indian
      Writings of E.S. Curtis
      Excerpts from “The North American Indian” Set #254, Vol. 3

      That the destruction was the most brutal and improvident of its kind in the history of civilization there is no question, and that those who went out and mowed the animals down by scores and hundreds in a single day are deserving of every criticism there is no doubt; but when we view the question in a broader way, the blame would seem to rest not entirely with those who shouldered the guns. It was public sentiment that slaughtered the western herd of the American bison — a sentiment which, fostered by our desire further to oppress, to bring under subjection, and to rob of their birthright a people already driven for two generations before a greedily advancing civilization, was supported by the people as represented in the halls of Congress, and which became the governmental policy. Here lay the blame. We slaughtered the buffalo in order to starve the Indians of the plains into submission, thereby forcing them into a position in which they must take what we saw fit to dole out to them.

      You pretty much prove the point that Fredy Perlman made when citing Herman Melville in regards to the mindset of Indian hunters. They perceived themselves the victims and as such could justify any number of atrocities.

      I understand that the notion of Native Americans as “noble savages” is a myth, but to dismiss their desire to retain control and viability in their ancestral lands based exclusively on a might makes right model seems fairly arrogant. Would you apply that same logic to assimilate to every other distinct culture? Are some more disposable than others?

      Joseph Heller once said, “Catch-22 means people have the right to do to you anything that you cannot prevent them from doing to you.”

      As Kurt Vonnegut once said about how human civilization will be viewed, “We could have done so much better.”

  15. Jack Hampton permalink
    October 1, 2009 1:06 am

    I never said anyone was a victim, You pulled that out of you know where. I said these were men of there times surviving. The smallpox was traced to an outbreak from a river barge that is settled fact. Now I believe there was one individual that tried to spread small pox by that means but was not very sucessful. I also said it was not the policy of the military and that is fact. I swear I believe you are that bufoon Ward Churchill.

    • LanceThruster permalink
      October 2, 2009 2:12 pm

      You did not say whose military and in that context you seem to be incorrect from the sources I came across.

      Next I wonder if we will hear the old saw about the military issueing small pox infected blankets which was a lie. The fact is that there were atrocities on both sides. This land was going to be settled and if not by western europeans then maybe later when by someone else

      You anticipated an argument from me I had not made. But I am so glad you did as it had me discover some other elements I find useful for discussion (more on that later).

      As far as survival being the primary concern; this does not negate the fact that even the more brutal and barbaric actions were seen as necessary for their ultimate survival. They indeed saw themselves as “victimized” by the resistance of Native Americans to the encroachment of their land by foreign invaders (a situation analogous to the concern today about the ability of Mexican illegal immigrants to flood the country with *their* numbers and forever alter the demographics and power dynamics). Certainly shows how critical border control is.

      Regardless of “official” military policy or that of the government of the US, the Native American inhabitants that preceded the massive European influx were certainly decimated, marginalized, and forcibly relocated as a result of the European’s notion of Manifest Destiny. For a people so tied to Western concepts of law and justice and property rights, the failure to honor treaties once made seems not to cause them too much grief. I guess “valid” contracts are only those you can enforce.

      Looks like yet another example of Heller’s “Catch-22”.

      One last thing Jackie-boy, I’d be careful about throwing around terms such as “buffoon” (correct spelling), because unless English is not your primary language, you appear to struggle with literacy. Regardless, your ideas and grasp of facts is often rudimentary at best.

      Just sayin’.

      • Jack Hampton permalink
        October 3, 2009 1:06 am

        I will readily admit that this is not the best format for me to communicate the main problem being the lack of typing ability. Make no mistake you are a buffoon in regard to this subject because you see wrong on only one side. I will also add we have the ability to stop the invasion from illegal Mexicans and others from the southern border it has been done before as recently as when Dwight Eisenhower was President. You can also bet your bottom dollar that will happen and probably sooner than most people think. All that it is going to take is one of a few events. Yes I admitted they were relocated by force and there were atrocities on both sides. My communications are best done face to face for instance if we were face to face I am sure I would be able to get my point across to even to a fragile Lancie boy like you. You see I am an expert at dealing with punks of course I am not saying you are a punk at all. However if you were I believe i could manage to get you to understand. But I do believe you are a waste of time. Lancie

        • Swemson permalink
          October 3, 2009 12:54 pm

          Would that everyone ignored him.. He wastes more time on Newsreel than anyone else, and NOBODY us ever going to teach hum anything, so why bother.. ?

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