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Rebuttal of the Day: Straight Soldiers Shouldn’t Flatter Themselves

October 17, 2009

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From Larry, responding to a comment on today’s David Horowitz quote of the day:

“Homosexuality develops in the formative years due to the lack of a positive male role model and a dominant female.”

I have two older brothers who are straight and raised a family and our father was a strong, positive male role model. But why I am gay? Sorry to bust your logic.

” None of this even considers the destructive effect of allowing homosexuals to serve openly in the military. ”

Laughable. Gays have been serving in European and Israeli military units for decades. Are Americans really that uncomfortable with their sexuality? Some of the best servicemen and service women the U.S. forces happen to be gay, and that includes gay people working in intelligentsia and translations. Straight soldier – don’t flatter yourself by assuming that a gay soldier will make a pass at you. Puhleeeeeeze.

Great points, Larry. I agree 100% on both.

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28 Comments
  1. FelixPrismus permalink
    October 17, 2009 12:19 pm

    I previously did not know these things.

    Good job Larry, I agree.

    • swemson permalink
      October 17, 2009 9:06 pm

      Larry;

      Don’t expect a rational response from most “conservative” Americans to what you say….

      Their religious prejudices makes it impossible for them to NOT see gays as a threat to their uptight attitudes…

  2. ScottyDog permalink
    October 17, 2009 12:47 pm

    “Some of the best servicemen and service women the U.S. forces happen to be gay, and that includes gay people working in intelligentsia and translations”

    Where did you get the information to make your assertion or is that just your opinion?

    I personally would not want to see gays openly serving in the military as it would be detrimental to unit cohesion.

    • AuntWie permalink
      October 17, 2009 8:38 pm

      Where are you getting the information that “it would be detrimental to unit cohesion”? Or is that just your opinion?

      • swemson permalink
        October 17, 2009 9:08 pm

        At one time it was an issue, in a few limited instances.. but that’s almost non-existent in today’s military.

  3. David Forsmark permalink
    October 17, 2009 9:26 pm

    Cliche of the day, snarky comment of the day, not based in experience or any direct knowledge, for certain.

    Sexual tension is the last thing you need to introduce to combat units. These guys live together in ways that are more intimate in every way but sexually, than husbands and wives– who generally have SOME privacy left.

    Furthermore, the culture the military depends on recruits from, small town, socially conservative male types don’t need any more discouragement.

    Sexual modesty is not a small thing. There are a LOT of women I’m not attracted to, and still wouldn’t be after a long stint on a desert island, that doesn’t mean I would be comfortable showering with them.

    This is like health care reform. In order to solve a limited problem, you introduce a much bigger re0rdering of the larger system. Watch Generation Kill for a good look at how Marines interact and tell me introducing open homosexuality to that is a great idea.

    I know it makes us all feel modern, sophisticated and cool to say such things, but it’s really an act of extreme naivete and and a complete lack of understanding of the culture of a combat unit.

    • swemson permalink
      October 17, 2009 9:53 pm

      David;

      A few wind up in The Corps who are so young and stupid that they don’t even know that they’re gay….

      We had one in my platoon at Parris Island, and he was gone in less than an hour after we got to take our first shower, about 48 hours after getting there…

      The funny part of the picture however is when young recruits run across some of the Woman Marine Drill Instructors for the first time… My platoon pulled mess duty in the women’s mess hall…. After 5 years at NYU in Greenwich Village, I thought I had seen everything…. Damn ! Some of them were just about the scariest Marines I’d ever seen…. Still sends a chill down my spine

    • Steve R permalink
      October 19, 2009 10:04 am

      I served on a combat aircrew for three years while in the Navy. We spent long hours in long range patrol over the Atlantic Ocean. In case of accident or attack, we all expected to live or die together. At least half of those on our 21-man aircrews lived in the same room or set of rooms during our off time. The bonding extended to off-duty hours and activities. I would not have wanted to serve that closely with, nor certainly to live with, any openly gay sailor. I feel no need to explain this to anyone. Those who have served in a combat or combat support mission will understand that. Those who haven’t never will. It just IS — regardless of what social-justice-feel-good horse hockey the politically correct set is putting out.

  4. David Forsmark permalink
    October 17, 2009 11:23 pm

    Heck, pro-sports locker rooms aren’t exactly friendly to the notion, and compared to a Marine barracks, that’s practically a gathering of hippies!

  5. October 18, 2009 2:23 am

    If a gay person makes a pass at you it’s not the end of the world, nor is it in anyway indicative of having homosexual proclivities.

    Just let the person know in a polite manner that your not interested, just as you would any other person you would not feel attracted to sexually or otherwise.

    Most homophobia is rooted in fear and ignorance, which is also the path to alleviating this unnecessary prejudice! Alleviate fear and ignorance, then prejudice has no ground on which to stand!

    We need every American, Gay or otherwise, to join in the struggle to bring back our nation from the precipice of perdition under a ‘socialist democracy’ and return our great nation to the Federated Republic under law that was originally instituted by Ben Franklin and the founders!

    America Again in 2010!

  6. Nick Reynolds permalink
    October 18, 2009 4:13 am

    I’d have to disagree with Barrios comment that “Most homophobia is rooted in fear and ignorance, which is also the path to alleviating this unnecessary prejudice! ” My experience
    has been that it’s rooted in disgust and distaste. Men who view themselves as hyper-masculine aren’t ‘afraid’ of queers or ‘ignorant’ of what they do. They find it to be outside of their boudries of what it is to be a man. It’s viewed as a weaknes and an inherrant flaw.

    I wonder if this prejudice IS unnecessary in all instances. If it was ‘unnecessary’, wouldn’t it have disappeared on it’s own over the millenia of human existense? I don’t have the answer to that.

    Oh, and David . . . I’d have to say that any gay men that I know are aware that they’re gay by the time they’re 18 years old. The idea that young men ” who are so young and stupid that they don’t even know that they’re gay”, seems to be projection, or hopefulness on your part.

    Personally, I don’t care about about sexual orientation. If a gay, chimp with a permanent limp, could do the job, I ‘d serve with him.

    • swemson permalink
      October 18, 2009 1:43 pm

      The vast majority of gays certainly do know they’re gay at a young age…

      But there are exceptions..

      The fellow in my platoon I referred to, looked like the banjo playing kid from Deliverance… Lot’s of young kids from the sticks join the service.. many at only 17…

      Many have also repressed it for years, and finally come out years later, after being married and having children….

      I don’t think there are too many hard and fast rules about this subject…. there’s much we don’t understand yet..

    • October 18, 2009 5:18 pm

      MOST homophobia IS rooted in fear and ignorance. Calling it distasteful or disgusting is the actualization of fear.

      “Men who view themselves as hyper-masculine ARE ‘afraid’ of queers and are ‘ignorant’. They find it to be outside of THEIR boundaries of what it is to be a MAN. Their views are a weakness and flawed.”

      The Israeli army and the Mossad employ gay men to draw in and assassinate Muslim Arab terrorists who cannot touch women, yet seem to have a unspoken acceptance of sex with other men. Their flawed views of Israeli gay men is what lures them to their deaths! (These are verifiable facts whether you want to believe it nor not)

      All of the negative feelings toward gays are based in fear. Fear and ignorance drives all the the other emotions! Fear of being associated with any semblance gay is what pushes many so called macho men to be hyper-homophobic. How many fathers began at an early age of pushing a homophobic agenda by calling their sons ‘sissy boy’ or associating inferiority with the child being not interested in the fathers homophobic associations with anything outside of their hyper-macho world view! The child is mentally brutalized to believe they are and will be seen as inferior if any of the labels their fathers put on them, show just a little bit!

      Don’t tell me this doesn’t exist because I see it all the time. Just stand around any male physical contact sports activity and you’ll get to see the greatest collection of homophobes and prejudicial jerks on the planet. I am not saying every parent is like that, but it is rampant and obvious!

      Fear is the base component of ALL misplaced prejudice! And yes prejudice against homosexuals is unnecessary and unchristian!

      • swemson permalink
        October 18, 2009 6:34 pm

        Tommy;

        Are you denying that a good part of the fear that makes people prejudiced towards anything “different” derives from religion itself.. ?

      • David Forsmark permalink
        October 18, 2009 9:56 pm

        “Just stand around any male physical contact sports activity and you’ll get to see the greatest collection of homophobes and prejudicial jerks on the planet.”

        Well, take the roughest of that bunch and that’s the talent pool you are depending on if you want a successful military that will kill bad guys and break things. Otherwise, you become the Dutch or the Canadians.

  7. October 18, 2009 4:40 am

    Could homophiles explain to me the pleasures and delights of sodomy. Apparently, my queasiness might be construed as prejudice, so am I missing something?

  8. donnamarie permalink
    October 18, 2009 7:30 am

    Having served in the Navy from 1985-1990, I can only attest to the facts that gays are (almost openly) already serving in the military. Now granted I served in the JAG Corps and lawyers do tend to be a little more liberal minded (even the conservative ones) but we had a gay chief that was (for the most part) openly gay. He even discussed the application of cosmetics with the females that were working around him. (Some caveats-this chief was getting ready to retire and probably was not as fearful of backlash as he might have been had he been stationed on an all-male crew ship.)

    Back then the military was still discharging military service members who would admit to being gay (I am guessing they still do it now because it is “don’t ask, don’t tell”). Invariably, these people were being discharged for having come forward and admitted to being gay not because they made some type of overt pass at another fellow service member. In the entire 5 years that I served, I never heard once of an attack by a gay service member on another service member that involved some homosexual reason.

    I don’t know, having a rule to exclude them does not seem to keep them out. I do not believe that if the rule changes that there will be a mass exodus of gays into the military. I really do not believe that this is a fight worth fighting.

    • David Forsmark permalink
      October 18, 2009 10:00 pm

      And in the JAG Corps, you went home at night to your officer quarters, or family home. When you needed to take a crap, you had a nice private bathroom, or at least a stall with a door. If every lawyer in the JAG Corps were gay, it wouldn’t make that much difference. However, it would be tough to say gays can serve except in combat units– though they do that with women…

      Look it was good that they called off the investigations. If you have to look that hard to find out, then no harm is being done.

  9. ColoradoFish permalink
    October 18, 2009 9:27 am

    As a conservative Christian, I have no place discussing or judging homosexuality. It is none of my business. Having said that. Why does anyone in the military need to even discuss sexual orientation. If you are gay and you do serve, that is great !! but why does anyone need to discuss your sexual orientation. No one needs to know of me being a hetrosexual male who is married to a woman. That has no place in the military.

    Just my perspective……

    • October 18, 2009 4:57 pm

      Alright!!!
      A Conservative Christian that does not deserve to have quotes put around Christian.

  10. Brian permalink
    October 18, 2009 11:53 am

    I too am prior service, and come from a long line of vets. As to the question of sexual orientation, it is my opinion and many that I have served with , and my relatives’ that it doesn’t matter of said Troop favors his/her own gender. When the bones are being broken and blood is running, we are a unit fighting/working as one. We do it for each other.. not because we are thinking about getting a date or what not, we do it for our country.. and to do what we can to make sure we all come home.

    I’ve served with some that were “openly” gay as in such they let all know without actually saying it. We didn’t care, they did their jobs and did them damn good. They never tried to impose their will upon us, and nor did we. As long as gays do not bring their personal lives into the military life…. I don’t care. When it is civilian time…. it’s just that civilian time. The problem comes when they wish to make it open, and it would take a very rare breed of a unit in a combat theater to fully accept one as their equal then.

    Being a soldier one must first think of their unit and job, the country, the service, and above all the Constitution before they think of themselves and their own will. When you Enlist you in some ways leave yourself at the door so as to preform as you ought in military service. You become the warrior you need to be to preform your duties. You act and treat others in a way that is not considered “normal” in civilian life as a whole. You are transformed by a completely different world per sé and thus must accept this and assimilate yourself as such.

    I’ve served with liberals, and conservatives through out my years. This topic had come up several times while sharing a few beers, or during FTXs, surprising we all came to a very similar agreement that it doesn’t matter unless it interferes with their duties and they don’t cause fractures among unit cohesion.

    I see no problem with them serving. no need to say what your sexual preference is.. it should not matter to your job if you are doing it right. Don’t fix what ain’t broken.

  11. Jennifer permalink
    October 18, 2009 12:25 pm

    The snide comments directed at “uptight” conservatives indicate a total lack of extensive historical insight on the part of the authors. This degradation of society is a cycle which has been going on for much longer than the “gay pride” movement. I challenge the close minded to do some in depth research of the Spartans, et al …and I mean get in there and really dig past what is readily available in the indoctrination institutions. If you allow yourself to think critically and openly, perhaps some truth on the matter will be discovered.

    Sensible perception doesn’t equate to uptight, bigoted or anything else the uninformed progressives wish to throw around in attempts to sound high class, highly educated, excepting and ahead of the game (as compared to the lowly archaic and stupid simple minded folk who actually have a moral compass left). In fact it shows they can’t see past their own prejudices enough to detect what is sensible, but why would they since their consciences are seared.

  12. October 18, 2009 4:49 pm

    It is sad that Black AND Hispanic culture seems to be unable to see role models in anyone who does not share their skin color.

    I know a doctor who is white that got into the field because of a “role model” she knew growing up. A Black doctor.

    She did not emulate the Black Man, she emulated the part of a man that happened to be Black that made him a passionate doctor.

    Why isn’t Bill Gates a role model for Black and Hispanic kids? Why not Yitzhak Perlman? Stephen Hawking? Do they not all teach the same lessons the minority “Role Models” do?

    It is because Black leaders teach them that they can only be validated by the actions and successes of members of their own race.

    And on top of that the “role Model” has to succeed in a fashion that is not too “White” or they forfeit their credibility as a “real” Black or Hispanic.

    Isn’t that pretty much a textbook example of racism? Of plotting to “keep minority kids down” by their OWN leaders?

    As with most things partisan it is about the power of those in charge, Left or Right, to keep doing what THEY want regardless of the facts or who is hurt along the way.

  13. October 18, 2009 4:51 pm

    ooops, that is what happenes when the phone rings between my cutting and my pasting. Wrong Comment. Wrong article.

  14. October 18, 2009 5:24 pm

    “ooops, that is what happenes when the phone rings between my cutting and my pasting. Wrong Comment. Wrong article.”

    Burn him at the stake, for spelling errors;-)

  15. jhimmi permalink
    October 18, 2009 6:33 pm

    Wouldn’t mixing gay and straight soldiers in the same unit be similar to allowing men and women to serve together? Does any military in the world allow men and women to serve together, sharing barracks, bunks, and showers? Wouldn’t that be a potential distraction? What if two soldiers, or an officer and subordinate, become a couple while deployed in combat? Would there need to be sexual harassment legal experts deployed with every combat unit? I know these types of relationships would be forbidden, but does anyone think that’s going to stop them from happening? Isn’t it conceivable that a lover’s quarrel, or just the normal ebbs and flows of a romantic relationship, have the potential to be destructive to the morale of the entire unit?

    I’m a heterosexual male. I am much more distracted by a beautiful woman than a beautiful man. In fact, my proximity to a beautiful woman is usually inversely proportional to my ability to focus on a complicated task. Are homosexuals immune to this phenomenon?
    I’m genuinely curious.

    • David Forsmark permalink
      October 18, 2009 10:04 pm

      That is exactly the point. Pretending it won’t happen is silly, and at odds with human nature. In this context, they ARE opposite sexes.

  16. Pan permalink
    October 18, 2009 7:37 pm

    Given that the modern American Army was founded by a gay Prussian Army officer , Von Steuben, and his 18 year old boyfriend ( secretary), what’s your problem?

Comments are closed.