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Comment of the Day: Is What Irritates the Left about Sarah Palin What Energizes the Right?

October 23, 2009

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Swemson, one of NewsReal’s most loyal readers, made this comment on Mike Rulle’s post today on Sarah Palin:

2009 October 23
swemson permalink

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// And WHY did Sarah make the far left so crazy.. ?

They didn’t attack her because of her political record…

They didn’t attack her because of the way she communicates with an audience …

They didn’t attack her because of her views on the war…

They didn’t attack her because of her views on the economy…

No..

They attacked her because of the way she threw her personal religious beliefs and moral principals, right in their face, and that made them absolutely freak out…

Hence my theory that we stand a much better chance of getting our country back by leaving religious issues out of the political debate.. at last for the next 2 elections…

By doing that, we take from them one of their most powerful weapons to use against us…..

If we create a platform based on the major issues of national security, and a free & vibrant economy, they literally have nothing but BS lies to throw back at us.. and the American people are beginning to get hip to their lies.

I respect Swemson and his thinking but disagree with this particular set of conclusions. What Swemson seems to forget is that the same issues that he cited as causing the attacks against Palin are the issues which also so energized the base into such enthusiasm.

Further, were Palin’s expressed religious views all that different from George W. Bush’s? Being an open, proud Christian didn’t seem to prevent him from being elected.

I’m not sure telling the Conservative Movement’s Evangelicals and social cons to just shut their mouths is really either an effective or practical strategy.

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261 Comments
  1. maplesyrup21 permalink
    October 23, 2009 6:44 pm

    lol @ his comment

  2. swemson permalink
    October 23, 2009 7:22 pm

    To which I respond.

    1: The circumstances today are different than they were in 2000 or 2004. The recent public outcry over what’s happening to our country right now is deafening. Never before in our nation’s history has our system of government been so threatened as it’s being threatened right now. This is a REAL crisis, unlike the phony ones that our enemies have been creating to help them subjugate us to their will.

    2: I met with a local minister who I play golf with yesterday, and he told me that most of his parishioners think Obama is the anti-christ, and that they would without question vote for any respectable candidates from the right, who when asked about their religious affiliations and beliefs simply said that their feelings on such matters are private, and that they’d prefer to discuss the burning issues of the day. After all.. look at what their other choice would be. These people aren’t stupid.. they know how bad the far left is going to be for all of their causes.. They literally have no choice.

    3: Many on the left who voted for Obama, are just like most of us in that they don’t want to pay the huge taxes, they don’t want to send signals of weakness to our enemies, and they don’t want the govt to force its insane healthcare plan down their throats. I honestly believe that a good number of these people voted for Obama simply because they’re offended by the image of the republican candidates constantly carrying on about gay marriage and other such issues. I can tell you for certain that this includes a huge percentage of the Hollywood elite.

    Whether religious people want to admit it or not, a growing percentage of our population has become secular, and IMHO they don’t want to hear about religious issues in the political debate. The far left hate groups and the media, have a field day regurgitating these subjects to the general public simply to ridicule republican candidates.. and what Sarah Palin was put through proves that clearly…

    Elections are often won or lost by tiny margins. In the coming elections, we’re not just going to have to deal with the far left’s hate mongers from Media Matters, Huffington, the Kos et al… and all but one of the major media outlets themselves, we’re also going to have to deal with the biggest, best organized and best funded example of voter fraud ever witnessed in the history of politics.

    Think of who we’re dealing with folks. Glenn Beck’s show tonight was all about the vicious Chicago style thugocracy that characterizes the way this administration deals with those who disagree with them… They’ve got Acorn, the Black Panthers, and all of the strong arm thugs from every labor union in the country on their side… And perhaps worse than that, is the fact that 90% of the country’s lawyers are on their team as well….

    And please don’t forget the fact that they have a few hundred billion dollars of our tax money to spend in order to gang up on anyone who they see as a credible threat.

    As an outspoken atheist, I know that I’ve offended a lot of people’s sensibilities about religion, but this isn’t about religion for me. I have zero interest in trying to diminish the influence of religion on our society.. I don’t need to.. it’s doing fine in that department on its own..

    My one and only objective here is to try to pick up another one or two or even more percentage points of the vote in the coming elections, to insure that we’re using every single tool at our disposal to defeat these evil people who have hijacked our country. If a point or two could possible make a difference, what the hell do we have to lose?

    If we don’t defeat these enemies of our freedom and liberty REAL SOON, America as we know it is going to disappear, and the world that we’ll be leaving to our children and grandchildren won’t be a world we want them to live in.

    • politicalmoxie permalink
      October 25, 2009 10:15 am

      Fortunately, or unfortunately, I can not read comments by swemson. The eyeball with the fly freaks me out. I’ve tried, but my mind keeps going back to that “eyeball” vision.
      HAVE I MISSED ANYTHING?

      • Marylou permalink
        November 2, 2009 1:34 am

        I too am a bit freaked out about it but didn’t want to comment. I wonder if I have read any of his stuff!! I think so, and I think you may not have missed much…but, let’s see.

        Hey, swenson!! what gives? the colors are great…but???!!! AND just HOW could this photo have been accomplished, too?

        • F. Swemson permalink
          November 2, 2009 1:41 am

          I’ve always loved close-up photography…. & I like the image.

          As to HOW ?

          I assume it could have just been put together in Photoshop, but you’d have to ask the photographer….

    • fillip permalink
      October 25, 2009 2:58 pm

      I find your conclusion based on a false premise. Palin did not throw her beliefs in your face, she just refused to be ashamed of them.

      When she was asked, she answered. Did you get upset when her church was firebombed with people inside? I suspect strongly that that particular incident came about because of Proposition 8 and the kind of vile hatred the leftists incited. The story was ignored by most of the press. Also ignored by the press is the single piece of legislation that affected homosexuals during Palin’s governorship was decided, by her, in a way favorable to homosexuals.

      I refuse to be embarrassed by Sarah Palin. I’ve attended tea-parties, I went to 912/DC. I’ve never done anything like that before. I felt rather silly about it until I got there and was overwhelmed to tears seeing a solid mass of Americans marching down Pennsylvania, who believe in traditional freedoms (like freedom of religion) assemble to demonstrate.

      You need to get over your timidity.

      • swemson permalink
        October 25, 2009 3:33 pm

        Fillip:

        As you see if you read the rest of the thread… that I never said that Sarah threw her beliefs in ANYONE’s face.. and I agree with everything you just said about her, and I NEVER said ONE WORD against any of Sarah’s principals….

        Indeed she was the ONLY candidate that I got excited about in this last election cycle…

        ALL I’m saying is that the media used her religious and moral beliefs as a weapon to use against her, because they knew it would excite the far left secular loons.. You know who I mean ? I’m talking about the lowlifes who are currently trying to brainwash young children with their disgusting marxist ideology… (Have you seen the video on Glenn Beck’s show ?)

        It’s the non-believers in the FAR LEFT that you SHOULD be worried about… NOT people like me…

        All I’m trying to do is win the next few elections so that we can continue to PROTECT & DEFEND ALL of our freedoms & liberties, and that certainly includes your unalienable right to think & pray the way you wish…

      • swemson permalink
        October 26, 2009 4:17 pm

        ATTENTION EVERYONE !

        This is a repeat of something that I just posted down towards the end of this blog

        I screwed up and misspoke above, for which I humbly apologize

        After David S started this blog, I forgot my actual words in the original comment I made on a different blog with which he started this one.

        Apparently I DID indeed say that Sarah threw her religion in their face…

        It was an error to say that for which I can only offer one explanation…..

        By comparison to the total amount of of commentary coming from MOST religious candidates, much of which is pure BS just like the rest of the lies they spout to get elected, Sarah talked about it quite a bit…

        I was WRONG to characterize it as throwing her religion in their face..

        What actually happened, was that the far left MSM smear merchants, who were searching for anything they could find that they could use to help them go after EVERY person associated with the McCain campaign, hit paydirt as soon as she revealed the fact that she had a downs syndrome baby who she brought to term because she didn’t believe in abortion At THAT point, they had ALL the ammo they needed in order to attack her faith with their venom and hate in full view for everyone to see.

        When asked about it she correctly told the truth about her principles and her beliefs, for which I admire her greatly… It was the right thing to do, and it couldn’t possibly have done her any meaningful further harm, because the cat was already out of the bag…

        So the bottom line is that I did misspeak which I regret and sincerely apologize for….

        Many of you already know that when I get on a roll about something I’m truly PASSIONATE about, I say it like it is, and sometimes do regrettably go over the top with my comments… That’s what happened with the original quote with which David S started this BRAWL

        I just hope that the majority of the Rational members of this blog understand that the TRUE enemy I’m trying to battle here is the Obama administration, and all of the lowlifes like, Reid, Pelosi & Murtha etc., and NOT the millions of fine christians who share my desire to TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY !!!

        Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa !

  3. October 23, 2009 7:34 pm

    David,

    I entirely agree. Sounds a little libertarian to me! I like it!

  4. Bill permalink
    October 23, 2009 8:05 pm

    swemson is right on the money…

    Embarrassing handwaving Christian politicians even turn off secular conservatives.
    We just avert our eyes and hope they can find it within themselves to keep it low key, because we can’t stop the damage outside the base.

    Romney, Huck and Sarah have all done their share of religious theatre, from handwaving onstage to the slightly more disturbing boutique sect favoured by Mitt.

    And I’m a Palinista….

    • Michael Reed permalink
      October 26, 2009 5:08 am

      [Sorry, I originally put this response in the wrong place.] What’s so disturbing about the “boutique sect favoured by Mitt”? Mormons love America. Why is that disturbing? For the record, I’m a Mormon, but the candidate I was most excited about during the last election cycle was Palin. Any gal who can field dress a moose has got my attention. (By the by, I have no idea what her religion is, and don’t much care.)

  5. David Forsmark permalink
    October 23, 2009 8:47 pm

    Right, she should be another phony milque-toast Republican, without enough integrity to speak her mind. THAT would be SO appealing!

    • Marylou permalink
      October 23, 2009 10:29 pm

      Totally!! we need to kick those bums out.

    • J Hampton permalink
      October 24, 2009 2:47 am

      First it is a very good response from Mr. Swindle to an honest opinion held by swemson. I respect Swemson but I am more than sure he is wrong. I also agree with Mr. Forsmark from all the elections I have watched when conservatives held close to there values with a nominee that can convey the message we win. Ronald Reagan was not shy about his belief in God nor were either of The Bush’s 41 and 43. Jimmy Carter spoke openly of his faith though I believe he was confused and spent to much time lusting in his heart after Middle East money. To turn away or to put aside your core belief would be a disaster. You can not seperate the public man or woman from the private.

      • swemson permalink
        October 24, 2009 2:27 pm

        Thanks.. but you’re forgetting one thing…

        Since the bloodless communist coup d’etat that took place in the last year, the America we’re now living in, is no longer the America that we lived in 20 years ago…

        We’re in a MUCH more dire condition right now.. and we have to adapt if we want to survive…

        BTW: How exactly is it that you’re MORE than sure that I’m wrong… ?

        Was it by any chance some kind of divine revelation ?

        • J Hampton permalink
          October 25, 2009 5:30 am

          Well yes devine it has been revealed to me in that I have followed politics for years and as stated above the success of these people is there. More than 80% of the country believe in God. To turn away from that will not help them get elected. Athiest are a tiny minority and I do not believe they would refuse to vote for a Ronald Reagan because of his faith in God. It is in no way disrespect to you I just be lieve you are wrong so do not take offense. I am sure someone Like Mr. Forsmark can say it better but for a conservative canidate to turn his back on his faith would in the up and coming election would be a bad mistake.

          • swemson permalink
            October 25, 2009 10:10 am

            I suggest you re-read what I’ve said…

            I’m in no way suggesting that anyone turn his back on his faith.

  6. Jonathan permalink
    October 23, 2009 8:56 pm

    Thanks for your analysis, David. It’s the sane counterpoint to Swemson’s absurd proposition
    that the very things that get the left in a panic are what we ought to DROP from the gameboard. That’s the moderate viewpoint. And we all know what Rush says about moderates.

    Swemson is too ideologically bound by atheism to really look at this objectively. He is a fan of Ayn Rand, which isn’t a bad thing necessarily, leading him to discount a large segment of society that atheists somehow feel are disqualified from American citizenship just because… just because they say so. Unfortunately, atheists will only get their way on this point if and when the Marxists succeed in overthrowing the country.

    I will go so far as to say that if evangelicals in America could turn out 90 percent of their voters in every election, the Dems and the GOP would be out of power and never get it back again until they figured out a way to dilute that powerbase. But most evangelicals are philosophically disdainful of political involvement. The 1980s only reinforced that mindset. I know this runs contrary to the “Evil Theocracy” conspiracy theory promulgated by the left, but it’s true.

    I do disagree with your premise that Bush used a religious belief to great extent. He might have played to that tune during the campaign, but I didn’t see Bush as another Ronald Reagan on religion. His term was no heyday for mainstream religious right movement similar to that of the 80s. In fact, a great many of those types thought Bush was not a Christian at all, or not much of one. He’s seen as a socially liberal neocon globalist whose internationalist policies are only being continued by Obama, and continued from the days of Nixon through Clinton.

    • swemson permalink
      October 23, 2009 9:38 pm

      I beg to differ with Jonathan on the subject of Bush.

      Bush SR. is reviled by the left for his repeated comment that people who don’t believe in god can’t possibly be good patriotic citizens of our country. He repeated that MANY times, and the bad will that he created from that spilled directly onto his son as well.

      George W compounded the insult, especially to the more educated people on the left by virtue of the limitations that he tried to put on stem cell research…

      While I understand that many people associate atheism with marxist or other far left thought, Jonathan’s comments about atheists themselves is totally off base.

      Atheism is NOT an ideology. On the contrary it’s simply a denial of religious ideology for the simple reason that atheists see no evidence to support those beliefs.

      The fact that a few nut cases go around saying that they KNOW for a fact that no such entity exists, doesn’t mean a damn thing.

      Neither do atheists have an agenda about religious people…

      THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CHURCH OF ATHEISM

      And there’s no such thing as a formal organization of atheists either. There’s one small group who have a website called atheists.org, who are concerned about government supported limitations on their rights, and there have been many.. such as the “Blue Law” that made it illegal for me to practice my swing at a public driving range on Sundays before noon… AT A TIME WHEN THE GOOD CITIZENS OF MASSACHUSETTS FELT THAT EVERYONE SHOULD BE IN CHURCH! And don’t for a minute think that some of that stuff isn’t still around today…

      Atheists for the most part are people who go through life quietly shaking their heads in occasional disbelief of or chuckling to themselves about the absurdity of other’s religious beliefs. Most of us don’t give a damn what other people choose to believe, and have no interest whatsoever in changing how those others behave.

      And to be quite honest about it, I’m sick and tired of others on this website trying to tell me what it means to be an atheist, or what the TRUE definition of atheism and agnosticism is. I AM an atheist.. I don’t hide the fact, and I don’t need anyone with religious beliefs to explain it or define it for me.

      Oh, and your comment about Ayn Rand is typical of the vast majority of what those who don’t know and understand her philosophy always say about it. Ayn Rand’s philosophy is based simply the value of reason and logic, and on the absolute sanctity of individual human rights, the same INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS that our founding fathers fought and died for, and the same thing that caused her to flee the Soviet Union on her own in her teens just to come to America.

      Thanks ever so much for telling me that her philosophy ISN’T NECESSARILY A BAD THING !

      • October 24, 2009 5:36 am

        Well, technically Anton LaVey’s Church of Satan is a “church of atheism.” 😉

        But actually it’s just a moneymaking scheme set up by a charlatan.

        • October 24, 2009 12:25 pm

          “Church of Atheism” is on the money.

          But as to the rest: “..moneymaking scheme set up by a charlatan.”

          Would not any unbeliever see Scientology, Islam and Paul’s version of Christianity all in that same light?

      • Jonathan permalink
        October 24, 2009 10:59 am

        I’ve never heard a single person anywhere mention Bush Sr.’s comment in 20 years except you. It was a blurp in small history.

        The left reviles every Republican candidate. There isn’t going to be one who isn’t reviled. Repeat: There will never be a non-Democrat candidate that the left doesn’t smear and revile.

        Bush senior didn’t lose because he cracked on atheists. He lost because he didn’t act like a conservative.

        • swemson permalink
          October 24, 2009 11:36 am

          And once again, you twist my words, and then use your version of what I said to contradict me…

          SHOW ME WHERE I EVER SAID THAT BUSH SR LOST BECAUSE OF THAT REMARK !

          And I’m not surprised you don’t remember his remark.. obviously it wasn’t something that bothered you, because you obviously think the same way he did about “non-believers”… and your constant attacks at every word that I say, prove that you are the perfect example of the bigotry that religion instills in people with small minds.

          • Jonathan permalink
            October 24, 2009 1:49 pm

            You didn’t say it. I said it.

            I never said I didn’t remember his remark. I said it was an unimportant blurp in small history. I personally dismissed it as posturing because, like most evangelical Christians, I viewed Bush (both of them) as neoconservative globalists and humanists.

            If you want to know what the majority of evangelicals think of Bush, then look around. Read “The New World Order” by Pat Robertson. George Bush Senior the globalist engineered Desert Storm to promote a one world agenda that will result in the destruction of the United States as we know it.

            Your paradigm just doesn’t mesh with reality. Television isn’t reality, and just because the left complains about something, doesn’t make it real, or an issue. Mostly, it means they are using some sort of ploy to acheive a different objective. Leftists, humanists and Marxists worship men in government and the concept of political messiahs. Christians… real Christians… don’t. They tend to avoid politics. Otherwise, nobody else would win elections.

            • swemson permalink
              October 24, 2009 2:35 pm

              You didn’t say it. I said it.

              Yeah right…………. you just IMPLIED that I said it…

              The last 4 letters of that word describe EXACTLY what you did…

              Again you prove another of my points, that to bigoted religious zealots like you, dishonesty is fine, as long as it’s used to smear or defame a heathen like me…

          • J Hampton permalink
            October 25, 2009 5:36 am

            I believe the small minds comment was a personal attack and unwarranted. There have been and still are Christians with great minds. Your anger and bitterness is coming through again.

            • swemson permalink
              October 25, 2009 10:23 am

              I don’t believe so…

              It was directed at zealots Like Jonathan, and as such is a perfectly accurate description…

              The VAST majority of christians are fully in control of their faculties… But there are several bible thumping zealots on this blog, and they’re the ones who are making most of the offensive noise here…

              How would you react if people called you a socialist, or a marxist, or a homosexual, simply based on whether you believe in god…?

        • October 24, 2009 12:34 pm

          Jonathan says: “>em>The left reviles every Republican candidate. There isn’t going to be one who isn’t reviled. Repeat: There will never be a non-Democrat candidate that the left doesn’t smear and revile.”

          This is true. It is also true that there will never be a Democratic candidate that the Right will not smear as well.

          Why is that partisans are people extremely aware of the dangers of partisan agendas but ONLY when those inimical agendas belong to the opposition?

          Meanwhile the majority of citizens are reluctant to take it at face value when partisans say that they define victory as the elimination of the opposition’s mode of thought from the public arena.

          • Jonathan permalink
            October 24, 2009 1:38 pm

            “This is true. It is also true that there will never be a Democratic candidate that the Right will not smear as well.”

            Nonsense. The Democrat leadership makes smear an official policy for governmental sponsorship. The Republicans don’t. The GOP has far worse habits, like cowardice. Democrats attack ordinary citizens in the public arena as OFFICIAL POLICY. Republicans don’t. Democrats use the mechanisms of the government to harrass and intimidate as OFFICIAL POLICY. Republicans don’t. Democrats despise the mainstream citizenry of this country and villify them on a daily basis. Republicans don’t. Democrats are actively fomenting hatred. Republicans aren’t.

            And by the way, “smearing” isn’t the same thing as “arguing facts on the basis of facts.”

      • J Hampton permalink
        October 25, 2009 5:33 am

        Darn
        I thought the democrat party was the church of atheism. Just kidding kind of.

    • J Hampton permalink
      October 24, 2009 3:03 am

      Jonathan
      I agree with most of your comment but I disagree with your analysis of Bush. I believe that Bush was very sincere in his faith. But I agree that he fell into a trap of trying to appease the left to much. I will always appreciate President Bush for keeping this nation free of attack for the rest of his tenure but I also hold him responsible for failing in his duty to keep Americas border secure and allowing more Americans to die at the hands of illegal aliens than were dieing in the wars we are fighting at there zenith. His and the Republican leadership pushing for amnesty is what lost control of the house and senate in 2006. Conservatives were disenchated and felt betrayed by it it was the crack in the dam that eventually led to where we are now. Do not misunderstand I know it took other issues as well but that was the beginning the first peeling of skin from the onion.

      • Jonathan permalink
        October 24, 2009 10:39 am

        Oh, I don’t doubt Bush jr. was sincere in his faith. At least, I’m not qualified to say that he wasn’t.

        What I’m addressing is that his faith was not worn on his sleeve publically. Bush was very Jeffersonian. However, we must come to grips with the fact that Bush was a neoconservative. And Bush is also a globalist. All politicians today are, Jack. That’s the agenda. Globalism. Now, does Bush want to see the same sort of globalism that Obama does? I don’t know. But I’m worried.

        • J Hampton permalink
          October 25, 2009 5:44 am

          Yes he was and is a globalist.

  7. October 23, 2009 9:51 pm

    As many times as I have found myself in agreement with Swemson in this case of his opinion on how Palin was seen by the far left I must disagree.

    “// And WHY did Sarah make the far left so crazy… ?”

    As I remember it she freaked out everyone I knew who was not a Christian Conservative. I recall much bewilderment on the faces of Moderates who had planned to vote for McCain. And then after all the crazies and partisans had been banished from the stage the incomprehensible happened. Just when the Republican Party had started out of its 8 year Fundamentalist/Neo-Con fog to coalesce behind McCain “The Winker from Alaska” hit the scene.

    “They didn’t attack her because of her political record…”

    Yes they did. For corruption, for nepotism, for lack of relevant experience for Federal Office, etc…

    “They didn’t attack her because of the way she communicates with an audience …”

    They didn’t? I remember them doing so. I did it! That wink! The first time was cute. The 32nd time it was frightening. When she suddenly stopped it was even scarier.

    “They didn’t attack her because of her views on the war…”

    I was one of the few people who tried to reassure folks that her patter about Russia being right next to Alaska was not so dumb. Then she went and proved beyond doubt that she had no clue about foreign policy. Her views on the war were simply not respected enough to be attacked seriously on the Liberal – Moderate Front.

    “They didn’t attack her because of her views on the economy…”

    If not it was for the same reasons as above. She had so made a fool of herself that her opinion was not listened to at all. McCain must have felt like he had invited a female Jerry Lewis to be his running mate.

    When it came time to analyze her religious attitudes she could not win the undecided over no matter what she said. By then if she had moderated her tone and pretended her faith was more Liberal she would have lost more Conservative Christian voters than gained Moderate ones.

    • Jonathan permalink
      October 23, 2009 10:11 pm

      Sarah Palin’s faith was an aspect of her life elicited by the left and then over-emphasized by them in the public forum, in order to caricature her into the mold of the classic leftist stereotype. Religious Right, shoots at moose, “Drill baby drill!”

      It served the purposes of the left to build a strawman of Palin based on what they could draw out into the open. Then, mob hysteria kicks in. All the leftists think Sarah Palin wants to turn America into a theocracy. She works for Pat Robertson. There is NO sanity in the public forum on this point. Otherwise, the fact that she goes to church and prays would have been a non-issue. What President doesn’t go to church? Pray? Celebrate some religious holiday?

      What if reality worked in reverse? What if Obama were the enemy of the leftist media, then we would all be saturated with media coverage linking him to Islam and to its fanatical elements. Every time there was a suicide bombing somewhere in the world, the media would be noting Obama’s “lack of condemnation” of it or by mentioning the fact that he has Muslim roots. Every interviewer would be asking him if he condemned jihadic violence unconditionally.

      • J Hampton permalink
        October 24, 2009 3:09 am

        Jonathan
        Very good.

    • Jonathan permalink
      October 23, 2009 10:19 pm

      BTW, I think McCain’s choice of Palin and his handling of her showed more about what a shallow dunce he is. And he’s been around for decades. At least Palin can say she’s a novice.

      McCain is part of the failed paradigm of GOP moderation. He needs to take his taxpayer funded retirement, his beer heiress fortune and his remaining dignity as a POW and warrior…
      and hit the golf course in Scottsdale. He’s had his turn in the limelight and we will survive without him. His philosphy is what has helped kill the GOP.

      • J Hampton permalink
        October 24, 2009 3:12 am

        Jonathan you are on a roll. You understand.

      • jac mills permalink
        October 24, 2009 4:57 am

        Jonathan: I agree, in principle, that McCain is of the political past, and it would be hoped his retirement could highlight another, less tired and worn, who could bring spirit and vigor to a frayed political scene. He cannot continue to run for office on the basis of being a prisoner of war. That is like Hillary claiming, by implication, she had experienced combat running from sniper fire with her head down, as she put it. John probably is a realist(POW time does that to most) and knows his time has passed, but that old disease of self-importance that often afflicts career politicians, could have ravaged his thinking process even more than the POW time wracked his body. Honor him for his service, but it is time to say goodbye, with all good wishes.

    • Marylou permalink
      October 23, 2009 10:31 pm

      It seems it was Tina Fey and not Ms. Palin who authored the porch Alaska comment.

    • J Hampton permalink
      October 24, 2009 3:08 am

      I could not disagree more. Palin was the only reason McCain got the votes he did with out her he would have been vaporised. She saved him from an electorial humiliation. She needs more polish and some work but this woman is a legit contender.

    • Jonathan permalink
      October 24, 2009 10:49 am

      Huh?

      Oh! Oh wait! I get it!

      You think television is reality. Okay, I get it.

      Judging by all the thumbs down already up top, I must have been slow on the uptake.

  8. Mark J. Koenig permalink
    October 23, 2009 10:28 pm

    I like Swemson. His comments are articulate and thoughtful and I enjoy reading them. I must however disagree with much of what he says here. While I’ll concede that there is a small over-zealous Christian faction which considers itself a part of the conservative movement, it’s really a very small part of the whole. Yes, the left seizes on statements made by these folks to attempt to demonize all conservatives, but purging them isn’t going to help us, as the left will simply adopt some other method of attack.

    If the Republican Party is to be the conservative movement’s vehicle, as it really must at this point, since a third-party candidate for President will surely hand victory to the Democrats as we’ve seen before, I do think it must eschew candidates who insist on forcing their religious viewpoints (including those on abortion) on others via federal legislation. That does push away swing voters and is frankly contrary to the Founders’ vision. I wouldn’t place Palin in this category however.

    While she has strong personal religious convictions, I have never heard her engage in the sort of over-the-top rhetoric that Mike Huckabee did, for example, during the last campaign. It seemed as though he just couldn’t answer any question posed in the debates without invoking God in some way, which irritated me no end – and I consider myself a fairly devout Christian. I felt too often as though I was listening to Huckabee the Baptist preacher rather than a presidential candidate.

    No, Sarah Palin is hated – and I do mean HATED – by the left because she scares them. More precisely, they fear that she can and will defeat whatever candidate they put up against her. It is also an unending source of outrage to the left that Palin explodes every orthodox liberal notion of the way in which a “liberated” woman should look, think and behave. I suspect that many women on the left also harbor a secret sense of guilt and/or shame regarding Palin’s courage and adherence to her religious convictions in deciding not to abort her Down Syndrome child (because they at some point made a different choice, or fear they would be unable to match her integrity faced with the same situation).

    Unfortunately she is also despised and condescended to by many old-school “blue-blood” Republicans and conservative pundits. They consider her a country bumpkin without the proper pedigree and therefore unworthy. Observe the manner in which Charles Krauthammer, George Will, Peggy Noonan and Kathleen Parker (to name just a few) heaped derision upon McCain for choosing her as his running mate back in August of last year. Their contempt for her was palpable. Admittedly and to their credit, a few of these pundits have changed their opinion of her (Krauthammer), but there are many who continue to regard her with disdain.

    I personally don’t give a rat’s rear end about what the Republican leadership thinks of Palin right now, and it seems apparent that she doesn’t either. Good for her. I’m sick and tired of pseudo-conservatives like McCain and Lindsey Graham disregarding core principles that in Rush Limbaugh’s words “win every time they’re tried”. I’m hopeful that true conservatives will regain control of the Republican Party and begin enacting the principles outlined so articulately by David Horowitz in The Art of Political War. Sarah Palin seems to have an instinctive grasp of these principles, which is what makes her so threatening to the left.

    • Marylou permalink
      October 23, 2009 10:32 pm

      Hear! hear!

    • Jonathan permalink
      October 23, 2009 11:40 pm

      Your paradigm seems contradictory.

      You understand why Palin is hated by the left in both parties. You understand the left fears Palin because she can win. But yet you recommend she drop the planks that make her what she is?

      The Blue Blood Repubs are the vocal minority in the GOP who oppose pro life, as Rush points out constantly. Sarah Palin is in the pro-life camp. Most of the religious conservatives in this country, who comprise a large part of the GOP base. If conservative Christians in America turned out in force to vote independent, they would beat the GOP and Dems every time. Their general disdain for politics precludes it. The establishment media gives the Country Club Republicans the podium because they serve the leftist template of opposing religion from public policy.

      Huckabee is a far cry from the days of Pat Robertson. Yet he is the most religious GOPer I see on the horizon. This is a far cry from the “theocracy conspiracy” presented by the left.

      • David Forsmark permalink
        October 24, 2009 5:58 am

        Jonathan is really hitting it here! I agree with most of what Mark said above, though I would submit that the religious conservative element is not a “small part of the whole,” unless the “over-zealous” adjective was meant as a qualifier to weed out those who believe, but are not over the top with it. However, up to 30% of the total electorate can in one sense or another be thrown into this category. Dems always like to scream about the “Southern Strategy,” but it was evangelicals who were alienated by Jimmy Carter who turned in droves to Ronald Reagan that gave Republicans their first working majority since the 30s.

        Palin did not lead with her Christianity, it was dragged out into scrutiny by the MSM, who were looking for a holy-roller comparison to Obama’s Rev. Wright problem. They even went back to former churches she had attended.

        Huckabee DOES lead with it more, but he is not considered a threat, so mocking him is not the full-time job of Chris Matthews, Keith Olbermann, Kathleen Parker, Rachel Maddow or David Frum.

        • Mark J. Koenig permalink
          October 24, 2009 9:19 pm

          In fact my use of “over-zealous” was deliberate and for the express purpose you cite, David. I’m certainly not suggesting that all or even most Christian conservatives should be ignored or shunned. My reference was a very narrow one.

          • October 25, 2009 7:22 am

            Awe!

            How very kind of you to throw us a bone, from the throne.

            Guess it’s better then cake?

            Ignore or shun, it doesn’t matter hun.

            God’s Grace is sufficient

    • October 25, 2009 7:17 am

      What he said, sort of. LOL

  9. youcancallmemeyer permalink
    October 24, 2009 1:28 am

    Being an Australian conservative, who has never had the pleasure of visiting the USA, it is interesting for me to read Americans’ views about Sarah Palin.

    Mark J. Koenig said:

    “It is also an unending source of outrage to the left that Palin explodes every orthodox liberal notion of the way in which a “liberated” woman should look, think and behave.”

    Not just a left wing American reaction. Margaret Thatcher had the same effect on the British left, as I recall.

    • October 25, 2009 7:30 am

      Things are not always as they seem my Australian friend.

      There is a smorgasbord of characters and beliefs in our country.

      I wish you had the chance a few decades ago to come here. Most likely, you would have fallen in love with our country.

      But then you would have to watch from afar whilst that place you came to know and perhaps love, deteriorated before you very eyes.

  10. Michael permalink
    October 24, 2009 4:07 am

    Just wanted to make a comment. I believe in the constitution and the separation of church and state. Yes, religion played a big part in the way our founders interpreted freedom and developed the constituion. It is of great concern that I am considered less of a conservative/republican/American because I may not believe in a god.

    Must I confirm a religious belief to be a person who respects the rights of others and believes in the constitution? Is religious belief a prereqisite that enables me to consider how I act in respect to the future of our children, rights of others, and the protection of our freedoms? As I recall from history many of the wars and persecutions were a result of some religious belief.

    The way some people use religion to validate their behavior – christians, atheists, muslims – scares me enough to become a skeptic of all the extremists. I have known, and read about, how evil people think all is fine and forgiven if they repent. So, if you want my vote tell me how you believe in the constitution and freedoms, rights, and greatness of our country without bringing in how you must depend on religion (or no religion) to give you this ability.

    • Jonathan permalink
      October 24, 2009 9:58 am

      Fortunately for you, the left is HALFWAY in agreement with you. They also believe in seperation of church/state, but they don’t believe in the Constitution.

      Nevertheless, with them in control, you will reach the conclusion that you want.

      At any rate, if you make an attempt to be objective about history, you will easily come to the conclusion that you are only echoing the standard humanist rhetoric of the current era. Or, if you will merely wait awhile, you will see America become Marxist and then all your rosy predicitions about the benevolence and peacefulness of humanism will be put to the test.

      • Michael permalink
        October 25, 2009 5:12 am

        The intent of your reply is unclear except that you disagree with something I wrote. I believe you disagree with separation of church and state. I also believe that the government should not discriminate based on religion, race, …..

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 12:57 pm

      Michael

      You’re right on the money in pointing out the hypocrisy of religion and the way all sorts of people, who behave badly, trot out their return to jesus routine when caught in the spotlight. Frequently we see slimy politicians get caught in either and affair or a crooked scheme, standing at the microphone with their wives, apologizing, saying that with help from jesus they’ll abandon their evil ways…. And it’s not just politicians…. Disgraced athletes come back to jesus when they’re caught, and probably half of the worst criminals in the world use that BS story to help their efforts to get out of jail whenever the parole board meets.

      I think about Bill Clinton… one of the most dishonest and immoral people alive, and the way he constantly set up press photo ops every time he walked into a church… Millions of truly religious narrow minded people without much education bought that crap hook line & sinker… “Well at least he’s a good christian !” Does anybody NOT see the hypocrisy involved in this nonsense ?

      The most flagrantly hypocritical of all religious institutions, has been running a “forgiveness” racket for centuries… No matter how disgusting or dishonest one is, all they have to do is walk into the church, drop some coin in the box, enter the confessional, say they’re going to change their evil ways, and have the priest spout some abra cadabra holy nonsense and get forgiven by god… They do it because they actually believe the con… that by doing so they won’t go to hell…

      Religious people for the most part have absolutely no idea how many people are hip to this con. They often persist in saying that people like me represent only one or two percent of the population.. when if fact the number is FAR larger than that.. Pew research says it’s about 16%, but most of us know that the number is really much higher than that, since so many people are scared to voice the truth when asked, knowing that it’s always safe to say “Sure I believe in god” My point here is simple… if you disagree with my premise, that we will draw far more voters into the republican party than we might lose, because you think that the number of non-believers is so small as to be insignificant, then you’re in for a rude awakening one of these days.

      I’m pretty sure that a big percentage of people that you see in church on sundays, don’t even believe in god as well.. All the young kids for sure.. In their child like innocent thinking, they intuitively know that the invisible man story is a bunch of BS….. but they can’t defy their religious parents who drag them to church for years, and then force them to go to Sunday school for years, which literally brainwashes them into giving lip service to the god story just to keep their parents or as was the case with me, my grandparents happy just to avoid the inevitable lectures they would deliver.. In many cases, only one of the parents believe the con.. Many people are only there out of a sense of obligation to someone they care about. I’d have to guess that the percentage or TRUE BELIEVERS in America may even be less than 50%

      Oh… And isn’t it funny how our resident religious bigot Jonathan jumped right on Michael’s back.. implying that IF non religious folks like Michael and I could look at history OBJECTIVELY… well I’ll let him speak for himself…

      At any rate, if you make an attempt to be objective about history, you will easily come to the conclusion that you are only echoing the standard humanist rhetoric of the current era.

      I.e., we’re really leftists or marxist’s at heart…

      Thanks Jonathan, for always showing us the error of our ways…

      • Jonathan permalink
        October 24, 2009 1:21 pm

        You’re welcome. I shall use your encouragement to bolster my mission of calling out atheists for what they truly are: shills of the Marxists. An institution called into being using the victimology, divide and conquer strategem employed elsewhere. An institution with little or no consequence outside the umbrella of the overall Marxist effort in America. Reread Swemson’s post. It smacks of the “us versus them” mentality. The “everything fits my theory that you’re a racist” approach of victim politics. Atheists in America are CLEARLY a victim group promulgated and fostered for a leftist purpose.

        As a part of my bigoted agenda to characterize you as being unobjective and insanely oblivious to reality rooted in history, I call forth this golden nugget of evidence:

        “I think about Bill Clinton… one of the most dishonest and immoral people alive… Millions of truly religious narrow minded people without much education bought that crap hook line & sinker… “Well at least he’s a good christian!”

        • swemson permalink
          October 24, 2009 2:44 pm

          That’s me folks !

          Just another shill for the marxists…

          What a tool……

          • theblanque permalink
            October 24, 2009 9:11 pm

            Well, you might be otherwise, were you to drop your petty bigotries and actually try to develop an understanding of the world and it’s history.

            I mean, please:

            The most flagrantly hypocritical of all religious institutions, has been running a “forgiveness” racket for centuries… No matter how disgusting or dishonest one is, all they have to do is walk into the church, drop some coin in the box, enter the confessional, say they’re going to change their evil ways, and have the priest spout some abra cadabra holy nonsense and get forgiven by god… They do it because they actually believe the con… that by doing so they won’t go to hell…

            What’d you do–pick that up off a freethinker site? How can anyone take you seriously when all you have is caricature and myth to defend your position?

            • swemson permalink
              October 24, 2009 9:55 pm

              What you think of as caricature and myth, also happens to be truth here..

              The only ones who can’t admit what a dishonest cult and racket the catholic church has been running for all these centuries, are the members of the congregation themselves…

              As Tom Lehrer wrote so eloquently in his song “THE VATICAN RAG”:

              (I’ll try to convert it into a poem due to the appalling lack of audio in this forum)

              FIRST you get down ON your knees…
              FIDDLE with your ROSaries..
              BOW your head in GREAT respect…
              And genuFLECT ! genuFLECT ! genuFLECT !

              DO whatever STEPS you want, if
              You have cleared them WITH the Pontiff.
              Everybody say his own
              Kyrie eleison,
              Doin’ the Vatican Rag……..

              GET in line in THAT processional
              STEP into that SMALL confessional..
              THERE the guy who’s GOT religiona’ll
              TELL you if your SIN’S original.
              IF it is, try PLAYIN’ it safer,
              DRINK the wine and CHEW the wafer,
              Two….. four…… six….. eight…..
              TIME to transubstantiate!

              So GET back down UPON your knees,
              FIDDLE with your ROSaries,
              BOW your head with GREAT respect,
              And genuFLECT ! genuFLECT ! genuFLECT !

              MAKE a cross on YOUR abdomen,
              WHEN in Rome do LIKE a Roman,
              AVE Maria,
              GEE it’s good to see ya,
              GETTIN’ ecstatic an’
              SORTA dramatic an’
              DOIN’ the Vatican Rag!

              • theblanque permalink
                October 24, 2009 10:21 pm

                What you think of as caricature and myth, also happens to be truth here..

                Prove it.

                • swemson permalink
                  October 24, 2009 11:42 pm

                  I won’t waste my time trying to conduct a RATIONAL debate with the likes of you… All you do is try to trap your opposition into making one tiny error so you can turn it around and use it in your pathetic attempts to win the debate…

                  • theblanque permalink
                    October 25, 2009 7:30 am

                    In other words, you can’t prove it–just as you can’t prove any of the other claims you’ve made against Christians on this forum.

                  • swemson permalink
                    October 25, 2009 5:25 pm

                    Well….. OK.. I’ve give in for a change…

                    Here’s an early christmas present for our mystery man with the hat and no name….

                    I’m sorry, but I can’t give you any statistical evidence for my belief that the catholic church is the most hypocritical of all the various christian establishments… That’s only a personal opinion of mine.. (shared oddly enough by several of my evangelical friends) The mormons are a little different… Their church is more of an organized crime racket than anything else…

                    I have been saving some little tidbits however, on the relationship between religious faith and educational or intellectual capabilities though which I’ll share with you…. And one new ones that I just found about the correlation between religious belief and acceptance of Darwin’s theory of evolution which is ALMOST identical… Here’s a quick sample from that one first:

                    Individuals who had graduated from college or had an even higher level of education were found to be more likely to believe in evolution than high school graduates. Holding all other variables at their means, college graduates had a 14.7 percent greater likelihood, and the percentage was even larger for those with education beyond a college degree, at 27.8 percent.

                    You can rind the entire study at the following source… But I must warn you that reading it could be dangerous to your faith !

                    http://aysps.gsu.edu/econ/files/ECON_SustersicRebecca_Evolution_summer07.pdf

                    Here’s a few more

                    Nyborg also co-authored a study with Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at the University of Ulster, which compared religious belief and average national IQs in 137 countries. The study analyzed the issue from several viewpoints. Firstly, using data from a U.S. study of 6,825 adolescents, the authors found that atheists scored 6 g-IQ points higher than those adhering to a religion.

                    Here’s some more:

                    Secondly, the authors investigated the link between religiosity and intelligence on a country level. Among the sample of 137 countries, only 23 (17%) had more than 20% of atheists, which constituted “virtually all the higher IQ countries.” The authors reported a correlation of 0.60 between atheism rates and level of intelligence, which is “highly statistically significant.”

                    And some more

                    In 1975, Norman Poythress studied a sample of 234 US college undergraduates, grouping them into relatively homogeneous religious types based on the similarity of their religious beliefs, and compared their personality characteristics. He found that “Literally-oriented religious Believers did not differ significantly from Mythologically-oriented Believers on measures of intelligence, authoritarianism, or racial prejudice. Religious Believers as a group were found to be significantly less intelligent and more authoritarian than religious Skeptics.” He used SAT’s as a measure of intelligence for this study.

                    And one more

                    In the US, according to raw data from the 2004 General Social Survey, those with graduate degrees were the least likely to believe in the afterlife or the Bible as the word of God, suggesting a link between religious belief and lower educational attainment.

                    http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=402381

                    Now don’t go spending the next 12 hours searching the internet for surveys that refute those… I’m sure that you’ll find some, and I’m equally sure that they’ll come from a religious organization or group… Those of us who think for ourselves know all to well how dishonest fundamentalists like you can be when trying to defend your silly beliefs…

                    And besides, I’m frankly worried about the mental trauma you might experience if you actually DID do some objective research into the correlation between religious belief and intelligence & education… The differences are small to be sure, but they are certainly there….

                    But fair is fair, and you certainly have the freedom to choose here, so in case you do, and it really does push you to the brink, here’s an article that you can read which will DEFINITELY give you a stroke…

                    http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/18/science/sci-jewish-iq18

                    Sorry…. Just kidding about that 🙂

      • J Hampton permalink
        October 25, 2009 6:00 am

        Why does Jonathan have to be labeled a bigot. I believe you are the bigot and you prove it with every other post you are a bigot against Christians. You are simply going beyond the pale in your attacks and they are unwarranted. You act as if there are no educated Christians but the fact is there are far more educated Christians than athiest. As I stated above you are in a tiny minority and in your case driven by your bitterness and hatred you have marginalized your self even more.

        • swemson permalink
          October 25, 2009 11:04 am

          You’re misinterpreting my intention here…

          I am NOT a bigot towards ANY group.. and certainly not towards… All of my best neighbors are christians, and one of my regular golf partners is a methodist minister…

          There’s a difference between bigotry, which is being used here the same way the term “racist” is being used by the left in the political arena these days… and hate… And there are indeed a few groups that I hate… including criminals, nazis, communists, cowards, liars, and religious fanatics…

          I bet you agree with me in reference to Muslims who stone their wives, but except for the huge and obvious difference in their violence levels, christian zealots… the real screwballs, like Jonathan, Cas, Jenn, etc are no different in principle, and I absolutely despise them…

          As you’ll see if you read this entire blog, I have nothing against religious people, but the fringe extremists are a different story, especially when they start trying to force their views on me by passing laws that limit other people’s freedoms and liberties. All four of my grandparents were jewish, and even though I’ve never been a “practicing” jew, the word jewish was clearly visible on my dog tags… In the first weeks of my boot camp at Parris Island, I literally had a few ignorant red-necks (and red necks are NOT all stupid) constantly staring at my head trying to figure out where my horns were… And one ignorant and vicious anti-semite who started harassing me from day one… surprisingly to me he was an Italian from Yonkers NY…

          Yeah, I guess I hate them too…

          But if you read everything I said, my one and only objective here is to try to pick up another one or two or even more percentage points of the vote in the coming elections, to insure that we’re using every single tool at our disposal to defeat these evil people who have hijacked our country. If we can do that, simply by having our candidates speak ONLY about the Big issues, (the economy, national security, & immigration) and refuse to let the far left media goad them into talking about their religious beliefs, to prevent them for using same to smear them with, then it’s worth a try. I’m not asking anyone to change or abandon ANY of their religious beliefs… ALL I want is for our candidates to tone it down on religious issues for the next few elections, UNTIL we get our country back and drive the far left loons out of the White House and our legislature.

          Desperate men do desperate deeds.. I think we’re in desperate times…

          Do you disagree ?

          • Jonathan permalink
            October 25, 2009 11:30 am

            Bigotry is what New Atheism is all about. It is of no consequence in the individual, but as a collective politic, it is dangerously ideological, especially in its advocation of the term “child abuse” toward religious training. In its advocation that religion is a mental illness. In its PC approach to the science argument. I see nothing BUT Marxism in Richard Dawkins and Chris Hitchens. Even if the Marxists criticize them.

            I see no Bible Thumpers here as you’ve claimed. I don’t think this is the venue for it. I believe Bible Thumping is my response for people who want to talk theology in theology forums. But I don’t thump otherwise. It’s casting pearls.

            But your definition of fanaticism in the list of people you hate is very very broad. It seems to range from wife stoners to people who speak in the public forum. You want to pick up a “few percentage points” using every tool in the toolbox, supposedly, while you exclude the biggest tool in the box.

            Nobody in the conservative public forum is overemphasizing religion. NOBODY. That is a fiction created by the left. It isn’t real. It isn’t real. It isn’t real. I wish it were real, so much. Because we would be winning, especially if we actually LIVED what we said in front of the cameras. Since the Christian Coalition rolled over and died without a whimper, the most fanatical thing I’ve heard was from Al Gore, who said “The Democrat Party needs to take back God!!!” I haven’t laughed that hard in a long time.

            This discussion has been helpful in highlighting the severe rift between those who uphold conservatism and those who want to change it into “moderate candy” for the delicate sensibilities of the leftists. I don’t want to impress the liberals. I want to treat them the way they treat people like Geert Wildeers or Ann Coulter. I want to smack them in the face with verbal pies over and over, in rude and obnoxious fashion. They deserve it. It’s the least I can do for Sinead O”Connor and Madonna.

            We need to defeat the left before they provoke a shooting war with very stupid people who have bad motives.

          • theblanque permalink
            October 26, 2009 12:39 am

            From the very article you cite:

            Andy Wells, senior lecturer in psychology at the London School of Economics, said the existence of a correlation between IQ and religiosity did not mean there was a causal relationship between the two.

            And why would the article about the Ashkenazi Jews supposed to give me a stroke? Do you really believe that the link between heightened IQ and genetics is supposed to come as some kind of surprise?

            (Though this does remind me that I need to get back in touch with Cochran; I’m keen to know if he has made any progress on his Infection Theory).

            • Jonathan permalink
              October 26, 2009 11:16 am

              You’re a sharp fellow, blanque. These studies are not big secrets, biased and agenda motivated. Scummy. People who do some digging on the “researchers” generating these “studies” will find interesting facts indeed.

              A cursory amount of thought put into these alleged results leads by mere common sense to the conclusion that they are BS. Is there a gene for religion now, Swemson?

              Heres a fact for you: Privately schooled and home schooled children normally win national competitions like the National Spelling Bee or National Geography Bee every year. Such children are normally at least two years ahead of their public schooled counterparts. Mothers with high school degrees who home school their children at home do a better job of educating their children than the schools do, overall.

              The former Soviet Union led by Putin’s wife is engaged in a wholesale effort to reinvigorate the church as an educational influence. Guess they haven’t heard the surveys yet? Incidentally, when the USSR fell, some of the first INSTITUTIONS to be torn down were the agencies dedicated to “scientific atheism” (whatever that is).

              But here’s the real thing that tricks me out: Here’s Swemson again, the “conservative” defending the leftist world of education. Extolling a system that is more devoted to brainwashing and building upon cultural Marxism than it is educating for skills. He’s talking about getting us back to what the founders wanted? Well, they created a nation where the Bible was used to teach reading in public schools. And I can GUARANTEE you. The average high school graduate in 1865 was more literate and refined than the average college graduate of today. A great percentage of college grads in this country are FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE.

              And who are the great intellectuals behind this achievement, Swemson? Do you know? Would you care to discuss it? Humanists are running the world Swemson. We’re not impressed.

              • swemson permalink
                October 26, 2009 12:50 pm

                Jonathan and the mystery man above him, continue to play their silly games…

                The putz on top tries to impress you with his erudition (which appears real) but he uses it for the sole purpose of drag in people like me into a war of words with him.. He will eventually find at least one small detail that appears to refute on the many things I say, and he then takes that, twists it around, and then uses it to smear me on the grounds that the one little detail I found contradicts EVERYTHING I say…

                His two favorite lines are:

                Prove it

                and

                So in other words you can’t prove it… Ha !

                He attempts to do that exact same thing above with the following question:

                And why would the article about the Ashkenazi Jews supposed to give me a stroke? Do you really believe that the link between heightened IQ and genetics is supposed to come as some kind of surprise?

                Of course I wasn’t implying that he was ignorant about genetics.. I simply assumed that anyone who’s as much of an a$$hole about religion as he is, was probably an anti-semite as well…

                Maybe he is, maybe he’s not, but after all of these idiots accusing me of being a insecure gay marxist and bigot, simply because I’m an atheist, I feel entitled to IMPLY that he’s anything I suspect he is…

                Jonathan is less sophisticated in his methodology… He basically HATES me because I’m not religious, and will jump on EVERY word I say… and twist it, and distort it as much as he can and then use it to attack me with… The irony of his stupidity, is that given my entire premise here, about what happened to Sarah and how we can avoid that from happening to OTHER candidates in the next few elections, is that HE’S doing to ME, EXACTLY what the MSM did to Sarah

                You’d think that he’d be smart enough to see that, but fundamentalist zealots like him, for the most part, don’t appear to have any serious amount of intellect…

                Keep trying pal..

                • Jonathan permalink
                  October 26, 2009 1:34 pm

                  Why do you keep calling me a fundamentalist? Just curious. I don’t recall ever telling you what I believe or where I go to church. If at all. You have no idea what I believe about the age of the universe or the Earth.

                  Why do you blame the person who responded to your post for responding to your post? You posted the original statement, and he responded. What’s so unfair? Because he disagrees with you?

                  Nobody hates you. You’re pissed for one because I point out your worldview inherently serves the cause of Marxism. The fact that you favor Ayn Rand is irrelevant. Marxism isn’t about economics. And atheism isn’t about “science”. Both are about a materialistic worldview of all of man’s endeavors, inherently unstable because they are inherently relativistic. Both lead to the same things. A world that is the polar opposite of what the creator, referenced by the founding fathers, ordained.

                  Yes, I believe in the Jeffersonian ideal of seperation of church and state. But I am convinced that the founding fathers had no concept of what they left this nation open to. Otherwise, they would have acted accordingly.

                • Jonathan permalink
                  October 26, 2009 1:40 pm

                  And by the way, Swemson, your original premise hasn’t been lost on anyone. It has been dealt with, over and over and over again.

                  No one is treating you the way the media treated Palin. That’s ironic. What’s happening is that YOU are treating everyone who agrees with Palin philosopically, in that way, if they challenge you.

                  This is why I think YOU are a troller here. Because, once again, your advice is contrary to what ought to be done. And that is from no less than Rush Limbaugh. Palin is gigantically popular. But you want to drop the issues that made her so popular.

                  I don’t care what the study says about IQ and religion. But if it were true, YOU would be a snake handler Pentecostal for sure.

    • J Hampton permalink
      October 25, 2009 5:53 am

      There is really no seperation of church&state in our constitution. The establishment clause was meant to prevent the establishment of a national religion like the Church Of England at the time. For many years after the founding of this country they held church services right in the congress building on Sunday.

      • swemson permalink
        October 25, 2009 11:24 am

        You’re absolutely right..

        But we’re not in the 18th century any more, and like it or not, things DO change…

        If I thought that it was possible to GUARANTEE every American’s freedom of religion FOREVER, I’d have no problem with doing some of the things that the nuttier secularists on the far left say they want… such as removing “in god we trust” from our money & our courthouses…

        Now watch the zealots here go nuts over what I just said.. they’ll see only the act.. not its intentions.

  11. richard permalink
    October 24, 2009 5:29 am

    i agree with the author.
    basically republicans have to learn to play the game.
    lie, cheat, steal to get in office. because our very survival may
    be at stake.
    once you get in, do what you want.
    there are certain issues that the left will never change their minds on
    and the mere mention of them will drive them to a democratic vote.
    (vice versa for the right; abortion, same sex issues) this position however will ensure the left staying in power).

    don’t bring it up.
    the right, christians should just bite their lip, and
    just concentrate on getting in.
    it’s a different america as the last election showed. you have to dumb down.
    pretend. you have to lie. it’s the only way in at this point.

    • October 24, 2009 5:38 am

      “lie, cheat, steal to get in office. because our very survival may
      be at stake.”

      Absolutely not. This is a recipe for disaster. Playing hardball politics and being aggressive and forceful is not the same as “lying, cheating, and stealing” to get in.

      • "gunner" permalink
        October 24, 2009 9:20 am

        true that david, we can’t win by emulating our enemy’s sins. sarah palin became popular because she presented an alternative, and did so as an attractive woman, happy with who she is and the life she is living.

        • October 24, 2009 9:30 am

          Thanks Gunner.

      • swemson permalink
        October 24, 2009 1:34 pm

        David;

        I think you’re misinterpreting the true motivation behind Richard’s comment above.

        When he says:

        “basically republicans have to learn to play the game.
        lie, cheat, steal to get in office. because our very survival may
        be at stake. once you get in, do what you want.”

        I think he was referring to the dishonest way in which almost all democrats, as well as a few republicans play the game… He doesn’t really want lying and cheating republican candidates..

        He says it below… “don’t bring it up, the right, christians should just bite their lip”

        And at this perilous juncture in our nation’s history, with virtually every single word that’s coming out of this administration being a bold faced lie, if we have to tell a few white lies to take back our country, then that’s what we have to do…..

        Common.. do the math

        Obama swears an oath of allegiance to our constitution, and from the words that we’ve now heard from previous recordings of what he’s said, we know that he was lying through his teeth, and wants to completely crevamp our constitution… He swore an oath to protect us from our enemies… and look at the way he’s been appeasing the russians, and the iranians, and abandoning our biggest ally in this fight, Israel…

        Now… Compare that to a hypothetical republican candidate in the future, who is sincerely against abortion, in an election debate or interview, when asked for his position on roe v wade, simply says: Roe v wade is the law. Regardless of what my own personal religious beliefs or lack of same may be, as a congressman/senator, my first responsibility is to protect the laws of our land, and to help lead America back to a new era of freedom and prosperity, and safety from our enemies”

        Now how do you compare those kind of “republican lies”, (if they’re really even lies at all) with the evil BS that we hear from the far left every single day… Like this new POS Grayson from Florida who says vile and offensive crap like “the republican’s health care plan wants people to die”

        Michael’s almost right on when he says:

        there are certain issues that the left will never change their minds on
        and the mere mention of them will drive them to a democratic vote.
        (vice versa for the right; abortion, same sex issues) this position however will ensure the left staying in power).

        His only error is that it’s not just those on their left, who are so repulsed by the religious right, that vote democratic.

        Michael is right when he said we’re living in a different America now..

        And he’s also right when he says:

        it’s the only way in at this point.

      • Marylou permalink
        November 6, 2009 12:06 am

        I so agree with you here, David. There are principles and there are consequences of habitual conduct. I say, Yes, let’s be really strong and stop them. Expect the unbelievable tactics and be smart about not letting them get away with stuffing ballot boxes, etc.

    • Cas Balicki permalink
      October 24, 2009 9:39 am

      I’m too late into this discussion to comment, but I will say that I totally disagree with everything written in this post. You, too, richard, would disagree with all of this if you would just give it some serious thought.

      • swemson permalink
        October 24, 2009 2:51 pm

        Cas…

        You seem like a pretty bright guy most of the time..

        Do you HONESTLY believe that all atheists would realize the error of their ways, if they would only give it some serious thought ???

        Don’t you understand, that it was serious thought that made us realize what total nonsense religion is in the first place….

        Do you really think that only religious people can think about things objectively ?

        For the most part, non believers, and those who were brought up in a religious tradition, but only pay it lip service now, are the ONLY ones who CAN think about things objectively…

        We just don’t have visions of satan or angels or the fires of hell clouding our view on everything…

        • Cas Balicki permalink
          October 24, 2009 4:16 pm

          Swemson, my post to which you refer was a reaction to the lie, cheat, and steal aspect of richard’s post. I have never in my life questioned the honesty of someone’s belief, either atheist or theist. Like you, I have often questioned the sensibility of an argument, but never, I hope, the intelligence of the person putting it. Nor do I think that the truth is a monopoly granted to one but not the other. I think what happened is that my post was somehow disconnected from where it should have been placed, which is more than likely my fault for two reasons: technical error on my part, and, worse still, ambiguous writing, a far more serious error on my part. Please accept my sincere apology for any ambiguity that led you to conclude what was not intended.

    • Jonathan permalink
      October 24, 2009 10:18 am

      Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. You are in the Matrix now, Neo.

      So, you must be saying that Palin doesn’t have a ghost of a chance to win, ey?

      I guess the Reagan and the Republican revolution were based on the secular humanist vote?

      No. What needs to happen is the church in this country needs to unite, find common ground apart from theological differences, and hammer out a political platform based on amending the Constitution and making other repairs to put Marxism out of business once and for all. You humanist moderate conservatives ought to form your own party or just become Democrats.

      If the Catholics and Protestants and religious Jews in this country unite under a banner of politial action, noone can beat them. The church is the ONLY thing that can muster the grass roots power to put the Marxists and their phony worthless humanist utopia onto the dustbin of history. So-called conservative humanists can’t do it, because they are… culturally speaking… functioning parts of the fifth column.

      The American people are dying for a fearless conservative leader with vision and bold ideas, and they aren’t getting one.

      • October 24, 2009 1:02 pm

        May I interrupt your sermon to interject?

        “…the church in this country needs to unite, find common ground …and hammer out a political platform based on amending the Constitution and making other repairs to put Marxism out of business once and for all.”

        Let me get this straight. You want to form a huge Judeo-Christian theocratic party with the intent of amending the U.S. Constitution to allow one religious viewpoint to stamp out and eliminate competing ideologies? Did I misread you or is that a fair assessment?

        “You humanist moderate conservatives ought to form your own party or just become Democrats.”

        Of the three main types of Republican; Business Conservative, Small Government Conservative and Religious Conservative it is the religious ones that demand the loudest voice for their numbers. They are also the ones that are the most inflexible in their platform demands.

        Perhaps it is they who should go and form their own party.

        “If the Catholics and Protestants and religious Jews in this country unite under a banner of political action, no one can beat them.”

        Probably, but if Blacks, Hispanics and Italians did the same they too could control the political process. Or Soccer, Tennis and NASCAR fans united. Is this a good thing?

        And what is your plan for after the election? How do you keep them from turning on each other as soon as the non-Judeo-Christian parties are eliminated?

        Contrary to Right-wing and Left-wing partisans a person’s political voice should have nothing to do with how purely they adhere to ANY fanatical faith.

        • Jonathan permalink
          October 24, 2009 1:29 pm

          Actually my sermon was a written statement. I was finished with it by the time you started responding.

          You misread me because you didn’t read what I said objectively. Or, are you opposed to the idea of opposing Marxism?

          Who is the voice for politics in this country?

          What is politics except the effort to stamp out competition in the arena of ideas?

          Blacks, hispanics and italians would be on our side in overwhelming numbers.

          Lastly, I advocate a Jeffersonian model of public religion in the public arena. The founding fathers did it right, and the balance was fine in this country until the left came along. If America was meant to be a theocracy, it would have been one 200 years ago. And it was a lot more religious than it is now.

        • swemson permalink
          October 26, 2009 1:05 pm

          Johhny boy…

          I kind of like the way you began the first of the 2 posts above…

          Wrong, Wrong, Wrong the MEN are MAAARRRCHING !

          It sounds like you and your fellow christian crusaders are about to mount your white horses, sword in hand, and take off on another crusade to kill the witches and the other pagan infidels like me…..

          I’m going to keep a watch on my driveway tonight

      • swemson permalink
        October 24, 2009 2:20 pm

        Guy;

        Thanks for standing up to Jonathan’s ignorant and bigoted mind in my absence…

        Jonathan makes a telling little Freudian slip in the first of his 2 comments above when he says:

        If the Catholics and Protestants and religious Jews in this country unite under a banner of politial action, noone can beat them.

        Jonathan’s including the jews only out of political correctness… but only the truly religious ones….

        And in his second of his comments….

        Or, are you opposed to the idea of opposing Marxism?

        with his oft repeated smarmy insinuation that non believers are really all marxists under the skin:

        Again, he perfectly illustrates everything I’ve said in the last month or two about how the bigotry of christian zealots is ruining things for the rest of us… Let’s all get together, right Jonathan, so that on horseback, with ALL of our different religious banners raised high, we can start our CRUSADE against those evil left wing marxist heathens….

        The church is the ONLY thing that can muster the grass roots power to put the Marxists and their phony worthless humanist utopia onto the dustbin of history.

        That reminds me of the first thing that got me started on this entire theory of mine.. It was on several blogs, including this one, where small minded religious loons started screaming that the ONLY way that radical Islam could EVER be defeated, is if we all return to jesus, and return to the love of god, who of course, (after enough ass kissing), will rise up and smite those evil heathens and save us… Forgive the pun, but lord help us.. the only thing that will happen to those religious loons by fighting islam in such an asinine manner, is that while they’re on their knees praying… they’ll get beheaded…

        I’ll leave Jonathan to his holy crusade…. he’s doing more to support my point here than anyone else.. And of course, we must tolerate narrow minded fools like him because they are after all chasing the same enemy that we are… But you’ll have to forgive me Jonathan for not buying that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” rule in your case. You disgust me so much that I couldn’t bear having anything to do with you or any of the other religious zealots like you… and contrary to what you say above:

        The American people are dying for a fearless conservative leader with vision and bold ideas, and they aren’t getting one.

        What the American people are really dying for… LITERALLY, is a rational, honest and experienced leader and COMMANDER IN CHIEF.. who has the stones to do what really needs to be done done to save this country, and that includes dealing with Islam with the only thing they respectsuperior firepower, deporting all of the illegal immigrants, and shutting down the entire welfare gravy train so that honest hard working Americans, and the American business community will be free of the insane tax burdens they’re under from supporting those who are too lazy to take care of themselves, and our horribly corrupt government itself, and show the world once again the American spirit that made us the greatest country in the history of mankind.

        • J Hampton permalink
          October 25, 2009 6:10 am

          I believe it is obvious who the bigot is here and it is not Jonathan.

  12. richard handwerk permalink
    October 24, 2009 5:33 am

    on a sidenote. palin must hone up on her international politics.
    if she ever ran there would be a relentless assault/ridicule by
    all of the news organisations, print press sans fox.
    the american people have shown they are not sophisticated enough
    to rise about propaganda.
    (too conditioned by television)!

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 2:58 pm

      Correct…

      Those who berate her for her lack of foreign relations experience, forget that unlike Joe Biden, she didn’t have 35 years of sitting around in the senate, doing absolutely nothing worthwhile, other than practicing running for the presidency…

  13. Kelly Staples permalink
    October 24, 2009 5:43 am

    Any leader worth their salt must spout “religious” platitudes. It’s a smart career move. Lincoln did, Reagan did, and Palin does. Cynical? Yes. Necessary? Yes. Wrong? Absolutely not! There is an important element of the libertarian/conservative coalition that is motivated by such sentiments, and we need all the help we can get.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 3:05 pm

      Kelly…

      I agree with you about the past, but I believe that we’re in a different world right now… and ask you to consider the following question seriously:

      Do you really believe that the libertarian / conservative voters you mention, in THIS political climate, would reject ANY respectable republican candidate who said he’d prefer to keep his religious beliefs private, in order to vote for another Obama, or any of the far left democrats who support his ideology ?

      I honestly don’t think they will….

  14. richard handwerk permalink
    October 24, 2009 5:50 am

    #

    “lie, cheat, steal to get in office. because our very survival may
    be at stake.”

    Absolutely not. This is a recipe for disaster. Playing hardball politics and being aggressive and forceful is not the same as “lying, cheating, and stealing” to get in.
    Reply
    ———–
    what i’m saying is making abortion or gay rights is the real recipe for disaster.
    the left is too sophisticated, and adept at minipulating the public.
    obama is the consumate performer. our society at large is wooed, and confused by the role of celebrity. obama is the perfect sound bite. they adore him, find his voice soothing. they seek immediate gratification.
    come out screeching about god, the bible, abortion, and homosexuals and
    you will (NEVER), or for many years hold the office of the presidency.
    8 years of obama will ruin this country.
    by all means play hardball politics. (aggressively).
    but it’s all showbiz has never been more relevant.

    • Cas Balicki permalink
      October 24, 2009 9:46 am

      No! it is not all show biz. You have taken a generalization and substituted it for what you think politics is. You are wrong on both counts: In your generalizing and in your conception of politics.

      • Jonathan permalink
        October 24, 2009 10:21 am

        Thank you for saying that.

        • J Hampton permalink
          October 25, 2009 6:15 am

          Jonathan do not let the personal attacks get you down that is the last resort of a loser. The fact is the overwhelming number of people in this nation are people of faith. Good job standing up to a petty bully.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 3:11 pm

      Thanks Richard…

      Despite the immediate attack on any rational thought expressed here, like that of the two jesus freaks who got to your comment before I did, it’s gratifying to know that there are indeed people around here who understand what’s really going on…

  15. October 24, 2009 6:08 am

    The real reason liberals hate Sarah Palin……….she’s the total opposite of a liberal!!!!She has principles, values to live by,depth,spine, ……she even had qualifications….unlike their candidate who had only one……..his color.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 3:14 pm

      BJ

      You’re right about who Sarah is…. but didn’t you see how the far left smear merchants consistently hammered her primarily about her piety ?

  16. Janet permalink
    October 24, 2009 6:14 am

    My take on Swemson and his acknowledged agnosticism is that he appears to attribute it to education perhaps, but certainly intellect, reason, and logic when, in fact, none of these qualities are responsible. Many believers are better educated, more intelligent, with sounder reasoning and stronger logic than he. The truth is that faith IN God is a gift FROM God, and anyone can have it. All they have to do is ask.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 3:39 pm

      Janet..

      Thanks for helping to prove how narrow minded and ignorant most religious zealots are…

      Your pathetic attempt to paint religious people as intellectuals is a complete joke…

      A number of serious surveys have proven that the VAST majority of the most educated and intellectual people in America, do NOT believe in the god myth… and that’s especially true in Europe. We’re probably talking about 75% of the intellectuals in America and 90% or more of those in Europe…

      The difference between us and the Europeans is plain to see… look at the back of US paper currency and of British paper currency… On the back of our money, there’s religious symbolism and the words “in god we trust”.. On the back of the British 10 Pound note, there’s a large portrait of Charles Darwin…

      Are their some intellectual people who believe in god ?

      Of course there are… Religious zealots are fond of pointing out that even Einstein believed in god….

      But Einstein was born in 1879, and there weren’t many people from that age who dared to admit publicly to their lack of belief, and like most of the distorted and dishonest nonsense that religious zealots spout, the idea that Einstein was religious is pure nonsense:

      The question of scientific determinism gave rise to questions about Einstein’s position on theological determinism, and whether or not he believed in God, or in a god. In 1929, Einstein told Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein “I believe in Spinoza’s God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind

      Try opening your mind, and you’ll learn all sorts of marvelous things

      • theblanque permalink
        October 24, 2009 9:30 pm

        A number of serious surveys have proven that the VAST majority of the most educated and intellectual people in America, do NOT believe in the god myth… and that’s especially true in Europe. We’re probably talking about 75% of the intellectuals in America and 90% or more of those in Europe…

        And your proof of that is…?

        The question of scientific determinism gave rise to questions about Einstein’s position on theological determinism, and whether or not he believed in God, or in a god. In 1929, Einstein told Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein “I believe in Spinoza’s God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind

        And he also said this: “In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.”(Prinz Hubertus zu Lövenstein, Towards the further shore, Victor Gollancz, London, 1968, p. 156)

        • swemson permalink
          October 24, 2009 10:03 pm

          Religious bigots like you wouldn’t believe the truth even if they stuck their heads in it…

          Go back to your rosaries… you’re just a clown.

          • theblanque permalink
            October 24, 2009 10:08 pm

            So, you can’t prove what you claim.

            I’m a religious bigot…because I pansed you on this forum…again.

            • swemson permalink
              October 24, 2009 11:46 pm

              Go hump someone else’s leg you ignorant putz…

              • theblanque permalink
                October 25, 2009 7:35 am

                Yeah, I’m the ignorant one…were I to roll my eyes any harder at that, they’d roll right out of my skull.

                • swemson permalink
                  October 25, 2009 11:44 am

                  Well I’m sure that wouldn’t change your life…

                  You’re already blind to reason and truth…

          • October 25, 2009 7:22 am

            I guess half of those who signed declaration of independence are religious bigots? They all had seminary training & a belief in God.

            So by your very nature this country is screwed since our founders of this great country were “christians” who believed in the God of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob & is the Father of Jesus Christ?1

            Later w/ much love

            • swemson permalink
              October 25, 2009 11:48 am

              Try taking off your stained glass specs, and reading what I wrote objectively .. try to concentrate on the parts where I explain my one and only goal with saying what I do…

              Maybe you’ll get it then,

              But based on the perspicacity of your comment above… I sort of doubt that you will.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 3:40 pm

      PS: Janet…

      I’m an atheist NOT an agnostic….

      And for the record, the vast majority if agnostics are “tea pot” agnostics….

    • J Hampton permalink
      October 25, 2009 6:20 am

      Janet of course most of the great intellectuals are people of faith Bill Buckley and a list to long to even begin to list. But I fear swemson will never understan he is a midget in a land of giants. But a fine comment.

      • swemson permalink
        October 25, 2009 11:56 am

        As is common with people who think like you, your brainwashed mind is 180 degrees from the truth on that subject…

        The way you guys stand up for anything no matter how ridiculous it sounds that religion has taught you, kind of reminds me of the way 95% of American blacks voted for Obama, and supported OJ…

        That of course was REAL racism (or reverse racism if you prefer)

        What you’re doing isn’t racism, it’s some form of institutional insanity…

        Try reading what Glen NOT Beck writes below… You’ll see how SANE christians actually think…

  17. Mark Goldberg permalink
    October 24, 2009 6:20 am

    The problem wasn’t the specifics of her ‘religious beliefs’ nor her ‘moral values’.
    It was that she had or entertained them…. at all.

    Both moral and historical relativism, the fundament of progressive socialist thinking, mandates that there IS no right and wrong, per se. So, for her to iterate that marriage is by our vaules, and religious beliefs, between a man and a women is the horror of ‘bigotry’ of political incorrectness, and ‘unfair’ and non-progressive, ie it is flawed, wrong, evil ignorance.
    Never mind that she would say that no bigotry against individuals who are homosexual, male or female, or othewise…would be acceptable and what occurs inside one’s home is there business in that regard.

    We are not allowed to entertain that the thousands of years of what constitutes successful societies, families of people that produce children of their own, that educate families of their own, and that can sustain all the values that
    gernerally constitute a society. Hence the failures of Greece and Rome for example are in large measure laid to the failures in that regard. The greeks has to import soldiers to fight their wars, and dissipated their national society until there wasn’t one to fight for or with.

    Just like the US, which has marxists, leftists, socialists telling the children in our educational system that all we enterain as values are
    ‘wrong’, short-sighted, and in need of complete change. And so Palin enteratins and believes that there is a ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ and I too believe she is correct. And that that view is entirely healthy and that she doesn’t whine about being a victim lime the present first lady who was never a victim, and claims love for a down’s child that she refused to kill simply because it is genetically less capable than a normal child, angers them, since they could never conceive of taking care of that victim unless it’s seen as a ‘victim’ which she refuses to endulge.

    No… it’s not that she says she’s a christian and such. It’s because she has beliefs and entertains, believes and modifies her behavior in that regard. For that she is hated.

    They hate, and that hatred and disdain is what disallows all but the fake, gossamer ‘progressive’ diminution of any and all such values as archaic and fixed.

    That she should of course stick to the ideas and practices of governance and economics, policies and such, will actually be not allowed by her ‘enemies’.

    They will only discuss the dangers of christian belief and moral values. Whilst of course never
    allowing any such investigation of Islamic beliefs, values, and history, as of course, that would be ‘culturally insensitive.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 3:44 pm

      Mark’s analysis of why the left hates Palin so much is right on the money….

  18. Jenn permalink
    October 24, 2009 7:50 am

    Sarah Palin is incredibly full of LIFE! The left is full of DEATH – abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality, communism, lies, the whole spectrum that has helped make America the Culture of Death that it has become. Sarah Palin gave BIRTH, i.e., LIFE to her child, Bristol Palin also gave LIFE to her child, Sarah Palin is against DEATH by euthanasia, DEATH by abortion, DEATH of the family by homosexuality, DEATH of the use of natural resources by Al Gore and his ilk of Global Warmers.

    Sarah Palin actually IS – living and breathing, doing and speaking – EVERYTHING the seething, living, hating, breath of foul air the left is NOT. That’s why they hate her so. Death hates life. Evil hates good. Satan hates God. Immorality hates morality. Corruption hates wisdom. The left hates Sarah Palin.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 3:53 pm

      And then there’s Jenn………

      Here’s another Newsreel member who totally abandoned any vestige of rational thought in favor of her love of god…

      I was wondering when you were going to chime in…

      Hey Jenn…

      Can you spit out the word DEATH when referring to non-believers with any more venom ?

      I can see the little drops of spittle flying out of your mouth, every time you speak about the subject…

      And you’re clearly in the running for the “Biggest Religious Bigot” trophy with Jonathan…

      Keep up the good work…

      • theblanque permalink
        October 24, 2009 9:33 pm

        Nice ad hominem, Swemson.

        Can you, in fact, demonstrate what about Jenn’s post was irrational?

        • swemson permalink
          October 24, 2009 10:05 pm

          How about the fact that she actually seems to believe in god?

          Do you get it now ?

          • theblanque permalink
            October 24, 2009 10:09 pm

            In other words, anything that disagrees with you position is “irrational”.

            • swemson permalink
              October 24, 2009 11:49 pm

              Well anyone who truly believes in god is obviously a little irrational…

              Unlike the true zealots like you, most religious people manage to keep it in a somewhat balanced and reasonable world view…

              • theblanque permalink
                October 25, 2009 7:37 am

                Yeah, right–it’s so “balanced and reasonable” to resort to ad hominem and knocking down strawmen.

      • J Hampton permalink
        October 25, 2009 6:25 am

        I have to ask is this qualify as reasonable and acceptable debate. Swemson is just a bitter hater. Is this in the guidelines of comments? Just asking

        • swemson permalink
          October 25, 2009 12:01 pm

          Try Re-Reading AND Comprehending this time… instead of just sending everything you hear see & read through your christianity filter first..

  19. tom permalink
    October 24, 2009 8:38 am

    Far too many comments above are from people who do not understand the practice of principles from the Bible. Gov. Palin appers to have a grasp on those principles. They guide her in her life. That means that her decisions are based on Biblical principles. People who do not base their life on Biblical principles are just ignorant of those principles. They base their decisions on some other guide, quite often it is humanism. Yes, there are some conservative people who are humanists. After all where does morality come from. From GOD, our maker. No one is perfect. But the believer in GOD has a source of strength and a place of forgiveness for wrong doing and eternal life in heaven. To some this is a rant. Maybe, but for those in Congress and the Executive branch of our Washington government need to seek the leadership of GOD in their lives so that so many decisions that are now being made, that are satanic, would be Godly decisions and benefit the country. Sarah Palin and others have shown that it works.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 4:18 pm

      Yeah Tom… but Sarah LOST !

      I assume then that you disagree with me when I say that there are other ways to arrive at moral and ethical principles besides religion… Your religious narrow mindedness blinds you to the truth of the world around you….

      I’ve said several times, that stealing is WRONG because if everyone stole, we’d be living in chaos.. The ONLY rational way to live is for people not to steal… it’s a logical principal that has nothing whatsoever to do with what some invisible and unknowable fairy tale living in the sky has to say about it… Every single one of the every day moral principle you live by are shared by millions of people like me who arrive at the same conclusions simply because they’re the only logical and rational principles to live by.

      I don’t doubt that many people like you were taught those principles in church… I’ve never even expressed any personal disagreement with the teachings of the bible (other than for that original sin nonsense of course).. and I really have no desire to dissuade you from your faith.. good christians like you make great neighbors…

      ALL I’m saying is that I believe that we have a better chance of getting a good many of the voters who we’ve lost to the left back into the fold if we can only limit the republican political platform to the obvious major issues of our day… our economic & personal freedom and liberty, and a rational and proactive approach to dealing with our enemies to ensure our security.

      Obama and his minions have successfully tricked a huge number of Americans into believing that he CAN provide everyone with the free lunch and healthcare etc, that they want..

      Well you and I both know that that’s nothing more that a steaming pile of BS.

      We’re really in deep doo doo RIGHT NOW.. and we have a moral and ethical responsibility to do EVERYTHING we can to protect our children and grandchildren from both Obama’s communist utopia, and from the Islamic nuclear bombs that we KNOW will be be dropping sooner or later if we don’t annihilate those barbarians real soon…

      So tell me why you would possibly object to good religious folks standing side to side with honest patriotic non religious folks to defeat our common enemies…?

      I don’t think that any honest and realistic christian could possibly object… other than for the real fanatical zealots of course.. and I doubt that you’re one of those…

  20. David Forsmark permalink
    October 24, 2009 9:02 am

    Unlike Mike Huckabee, I can remember NO moment from the 2008 campaign in which Sara Palin made a vote-for-me-I’m-a-Christian appeal.

    What you had was Do-NOT-v0te-for-her-she’s-more-than-just-a-nominal-Christian moments from the MSM. A LOT of them.

    Ultimately, then, Swemson is making the same point as Chris Matthews and Frank Schaeffer, Evangelicals need not apply. Even though his is for tactical reasons, and theirs is for bigoted ones.

    • Jonathan permalink
      October 24, 2009 10:28 am

      Exactly. But I think the bigotry is inevitable and necessary, however the exclusion might otherwise be justified strategically.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 4:25 pm

      David..

      I agree with your characterization of what happened to Sarah… You’re right.. she DIDN’t throw it in their face… She didn’t have to.

      But you’re absolutely wrong if you believe that I think that evangelicals have no place in government or politics.. I may think their beliefs are silly, but I have nothing against them…

      I’m just stating my OWN political theory, that if they’d only tone it down for a while, we’d have a better chance to get our country back in the next few elections…

      And I doubt that you disagree with me when I say how critical they will be to the future of freedom and liberty in America.

      • swemson permalink
        October 24, 2009 4:37 pm

        Jonathan..

        Are you beginning to understand the strategy I’m proposing ?

        How’s this..?

        What if I came to the table saying that I too am a deeply religious man, who truly fears for our future freedom and liberty to worship god the way we want too, and that maybe we’d have a better chance of escaping the evil hands of the marxists who have taken over our government, if we could only cool it for a while about gay marriage & the other stuff…..

        Do you think that there’s a chance that religious bigots like you might be more sympathetic to that argument, rather than the honest one that I’ve been trying to make here ?

        Would it help me get you to behind my idea if I candy coated it for you ?

        Because if it would, I’ll be happy to do so…

        If it would help, perhaps you’ve shown me a better way to achieve our common goal…

        Believe me when I say that I’d have no trouble becoming a liar & a hypocrite if it could HELP US GET OUR COUNTRY BACK !

        I’m too damn old to re-enlist.. I’m just trying to do my part here to win this battle…

        • Jonathan permalink
          October 24, 2009 5:21 pm

          I’ve always understood the strategy you are proposing. I’ve been following your threads and posts for a while. And I think you understand that I understand. That’s why you are mad at me. At any rate, let’s see your premise here.

          If you came to the table like this, I wouldn’t go for it. I might believe you had a sincere but faulty theism. So I would attempt to explain to you that PART AND PARCEL elements of Marxism are the gay rights movement, abortion, dope legalization, feminism, ecumenical religion, and yes, attacks on religion in the public forum by militant atheists. ALL OF THEM are useful idiots focused to one purpose, outlined in the communist plank from ages past.

          I appreciate the fact that you REALLY want to turn America around, in the finest tradition of Ayn Rand. But the fundamental problem that you and Ms. Rand have is this: Your brand of humanist free market anarchy cannot restore the America of Jefferson and Washington. It can only destroy it. Humanism IS DESTROYING America RIGHT NOW. Ayn Rand was right about many things. But she was wrong about the one thing that matters. She did not understand what America was really all about from the beginning. She just liked the wealth generating mechanisms.

          In my Jeffersonian Republic, as originally designed by the founding fathers, you would have a place as a citizen non-believer. But the Marxists would never be able to subvert your non-theism again, or to subvert any minority group into a wedge weapon to destroy the culture. We would build those safeguards into the Constitution, that were needs unforeseen by the founding fathers. We can no longer countenance those who would use freedom to destroy freedom for everyone. This is the great SIN of moderate conservatives and even Americans in general. They have come to see freedom as CHEAP and mass produced. Like McDonald’s hamburgers.

          The best thing you can do to help win the battle is dump the militant atheism routine and all the silly antiquated Marxist paradigms that it springs from, and start engaging the left as a true warrior, rather than a moderate who’s already sold on half their ideas anyway. Relegate the anti-religious stuff to your own personal grievance file, whatever that is. I used to be an atheist, so I know it can be done. I used to be an Ayn Rand atheist.

          The conservative party needs to winnow out the chaff, lose the Marxists, dump the libtards, and start fresh with a basic platform to defend America by defending the basic unit of society. The family. The Child. But they can’t do ANYTHING now; they are going to be dropped by everyone because they are trying to be all things to all people.

          • swemson permalink
            October 24, 2009 10:10 pm

            Way to go Jonathan…

            Keep telling me what I REALLY believe, and the REAL truth about everything as seen your your stained glass lenses…

            I couldn’t keep going if I didn’t have the WISDOM of your commentary to guide me…..

            PUTZ !

          • J Hampton permalink
            October 25, 2009 6:32 am

            I am almost beginning to believe swemson is some kind of foil. Or either he has been badly abused and we should pray for him. But it is obvious he is over the top in his bigoted hate.

            • swemson permalink
              October 25, 2009 12:03 pm

              ROFLMAO………….. Once again !

  21. richard permalink
    October 24, 2009 9:03 am

    Far too many comments above are from people who do not understand the practice of principles from the Bible. Gov. Palin appers to have a grasp on those principles.
    ———–
    I respect your opinion, but i believe the salient point is that
    if this is the main focus of winning an election you will lose.
    The issues are the important thing in terms of
    the voting public of 2009 at least.
    It’s fine to have a strong religious influence, but
    if that is the focus it will insure failure in terms of
    a presidental election.
    Possibly in a generation or two this may not be the case.
    But by then America will be a memory.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 4:52 pm

      Richard here is once again righty on the money !

      We have lot’s of ideas and principles to be proud of… I’ll even agree that the religious tradition in America, that played such a major role in shaping this nation in the past, is one of them…

      All I’m saying is that we have a far better chance to win next time around if we stay focused on the economy, and national security in the next elections and REFUSE to let the leftist media try to trap us into talking about our moral and religious values…

      My only suggestion to Richard is that he tone it down a bit when he makes his point:

      whether you lie, cheat, steal, no longer matters.

      David S is absolutely right when he speaks out against the cheating and stealing …..

      We don’t have to stoop anywhere near that low to achieve our goal….

      I doubt that he’d strongly object to the idea of the republican party simply sticking to the major critical national issues, and leaving those other issues for another time and place…

      • Jonathan permalink
        October 24, 2009 5:36 pm

        To heck with that. The left doesn’t want you talking about your values and morals for the exact reason they don’t want dissidents in China or Russia or Cuba talking about them. Because they resonate with truth.

        Say what you want. But I’m telling you that, if a candidate would deliberately set out to STAY OUT of the big political machine and the limelight, and start at the bottom of the world, in the veterans halls and the churches and the local county fairs…

        …and take a message of Christianity, morality and family and child advocacy to the people directly, with a common sense political platform and a powerful, persuasive plan to reform government and amend the Constitution to destroy the left once and for all…

        … and if he or she were fearless and eloquent and absolutely unconcerned with his/her “career” and “public image”, and he/she showed the appropriate level of anger and rage and indignation, and he/she addressed the real true concerns of everyday people like me…

        … and fearlessly resolved to tackle the issues that we see written on tea party protestors signs and town hall protestors tee shirts… he would win by a landslide. A landslide.

        This is what the people want. They demand it. They are SICK of political correctness, of leftism, of cultural gerrymandering and of division. They are sick of corruption, a broken justice system, pop psychology and second best compromising. People love their families, their children and they want to love their country. They want to believe that something bigger than themselves is out there somewhere, ready to be fought for and preserved.

        People who are ashamed of themselves and what they really believe are unworthy to win in the public forum, and they won’t anyway. They serve the left, and they would be the first to betray all of us to the brown shirts when the brown shirts take over. Why wouldn’t they?

        • swemson permalink
          October 24, 2009 10:12 pm

          And wouldn’t you just LOVE to write those candidate’s scripts for them ?

  22. richard permalink
    October 24, 2009 9:10 am

    word to the wise.
    all that matters is to get in the office.
    how you get there, whether you lie, cheat, steal,
    no longer matters.
    because the other team is pulling out all the stops,
    and they have everything in their favor.
    so lie to get in. then do the right thing.
    and save the country.
    it’s not a football game.
    it’s not the boyscouts.

    • October 24, 2009 9:15 am

      Absolutely not. You familiar with history? Remember what happened to Richard Nixon? He used your playbook and look what it did to him.

      “The moral arc of the universe is long but it bends toward justice.” — Martin Luther King, Jr. Those who lie, cheat, and steal to accomplish their objectives will eventually have to face justice for what they did.

  23. Frank permalink
    October 24, 2009 9:18 am

    I can tell you as a secular conservative who voted for Obama that the religious rhetoric was part of the problem and the ANTI-SCIENCE movement that it represents, which threatens to undermine our nation’s economic future and the competitiveness of our children as future workers more than many other issue.

    GOP, if you are listening, get your heads out of the middle-ages when it comes to science. Stop attacking science because the facts scientists uncover don’t jive with your personal religious/political biases. Stop attacking evolution in schools, stop attacking the scientific study of climate change, or you are doomed. When you become the party opposed to scientific truth simply because the truth hurts, you have already dug your own graves.

    • Cas Balicki permalink
      October 24, 2009 10:13 am

      Science and religion have never been incompatible. Indeed, it is as bad for the scientist to deny faith as a fundamental need of man as it is for a religious person to deny or attempt to disprove scientific efficacy. What you are preaching, Frank, is exceedingly bad science wrapped in a layer of pseudo-intellectual acuity while at the same time not recognizing that you have placed all of your faith in man’s ability to continually to solve all of humanities problems. This is, to be blunt, nonsense, for man is not omnipotent nor will he ever be. Science has to date answered may questions, and doubtless will answer more in future, but the only question it will never answer is, why are we, man that is, here? This is a particularly sharp query given that that all of nature tends to entropy.

      • Jonathan permalink
        October 24, 2009 10:32 am

        Well said. Bravo!

      • Jonathan permalink
        October 24, 2009 10:32 am

        Well said! Bravo

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 5:29 pm

      Bravo Frank !!!

      You’re right on the money, despite what our two resident religious bigots said about your premise above…

      The idiotic idea that science and religion are not incompatible, has been a keystone in the desperate dying efforts of the religious zealots to maintain any legitimate position or relevance in modern society…

      Cas uses all the typical talking points and buzz words to try to make his absurd point…

      Indeed, it is as bad for the scientist to deny faith as a fundamental need of man as it is for a religious person to deny or attempt to disprove scientific efficacy.

      It’s ALWAYS bad of course for anyone to deny the “fundamental human need for faith”.. But he left us another peak behind is dishonest facade of piety when he says that religious people shouldn’t deny scientific efficacy.

      Notice that he didn’t say that religious people should deny the VALIDITY of science…. just its EFFICACY….

      The reason for that is because these sanctimonious fools have no reticence to USING science if it will help promote their idiotic beliefs.. The best example of this is their recent attempts to sneak creationism back into our science classrooms to dispute Darwin, by calling it “intelligent design”.. One of the zealots most obvious frauds in recent years… It’s so absurd that Bush Sr appointed conservative federal judge in the Dover PA case ruled that ID isn’t science, and has no business in science classes in public schools…

      Everyone knows that ID is just a bogus new term for creationism… and it’s also important to notice that it’s aimed specifically at Darwin’s Theory of Evolution, which is accepted by virtually EVERY true scientist and intellectual in the world.

      Darwin freaks out these zealots, even more than Sarah freaks out the far left… because the very essence of his theory absolutely PROVES that man wasn’t created by god… It shattered the very foundation of religious thought, and has been flushing out the worst of the religious loons since 1859… Watch the NOVA video called “Judgment Day”, you can find it on You Tube.. it demonstrates perfectly to what depths of dishonesty and deceit these idiots still stoop today…

      He again dishonestly sets up a straw man to knock down by saying:

      What you are preaching, Frank, is exceedingly bad science wrapped in a layer of pseudo-intellectual acuity while at the same time not recognizing that you have placed all of your faith in man’s ability to continually to solve all of humanities problems. This is, to be blunt, nonsense, for man is not omnipotent nor will he ever be. Science has to date answered may questions, and doubtless will answer more in future, but the only question it will never answer is, why are we, man that is, here? This is a particularly sharp query given that that all of nature tends to entropy.

      An impressive bit of religious psycho babble indeed…

      Notice how he implies that science is based on the idea of man being “omnipotent” Can any rational person not see how completely absurd that idea is… Science is based on the premise that everything should be questioned and analyzed and then tested & tested over again until it’s been proven… or until a more accurate theory is put forth… He twists around his own ridiculous theory of the omnipotence of god, and implies that rational people, i.e. scientists, claim that they’re omnipotent…

      It’s the same dishonest strategy that the left uses on the right all the time… accusing us of doing exactly what they themselves are doing… It’s a lie… and all rational people can see that for themselves…

      That’s a fine pile of BS indeed Cas.. you should be proud of yourself… just as your less literate compadre obviously is.

  24. tom permalink
    October 24, 2009 9:41 am

    Science proves the Bible. As an example; if the big bang was the beginning, then name me by name one person before Adam that lived on earth. I could go on but that is not the focus of this posting. The conservative movement must go back to the founding fathers and what they labored so hard to produce and live by the Constitution. Get rid of all those agencies, departments, commissions, etc. in Washington that do not have the authority of the Constitution behind them. Get rid of laws that are un-constitutional. If the Congress abided by the Constitution they could have a session that whould last less than 6 months a year. Well, they almost do that now. They are not in session on Fridays and are gone from their seat quite often.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 5:37 pm

      ROFLMAO ! 🙂

      Science proves the Bible. As an example; if the big bang was the beginning, then name me by name one person before Adam that lived on earth.

      Well doesn’t that take all…?

      Tom here obviously thinks that the earth was formed by a big bang that god created only 6,000 years ago…..

      But to be fair, we must tolerate idiotic thoughts such as that, because religious loons like Tom here are at least fighting the same enemy that rational people are…. And we certainly need all the help we can get… All of which proves simply that one doesn’t much of an IQ to understand that socialism and communism don’t work….

      Duh….

      • theblanque permalink
        October 24, 2009 9:46 pm

        Tom here obviously thinks that the earth was formed by a big bang that god created only 6,000 years ago…..

        Where did tom mention a 6,00 year creation?

        rational people

        “Rational”. You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means.

        • swemson permalink
          October 24, 2009 10:18 pm

          So what….?

          Some morons think that chickens have lips…..

          No rational person cares what clowns like YOU think…

          • theblanque permalink
            October 24, 2009 10:26 pm

            So, you admit: Tom never mentioned a “6,000 year creation”.

            Not only ad hominems, but putting words in peoples’ mouths is part and parcel of your so-called “rational person”.

            • swemson permalink
              October 24, 2009 11:55 pm

              Way to go putz !

              Your persistent efforts to keep trying to twist my words to use against me will get you nowhere…

              • theblanque permalink
                October 25, 2009 7:40 am

                Yeah, I’m a “putz”–because I hold you accountable for what you say.

                • swemson permalink
                  October 25, 2009 12:06 pm

                  We’re ALL accountable for what we say you fool….

                  What are you going to do, function as my prosecutor in front of st peter ?

        • Jonathan permalink
          October 24, 2009 10:33 pm

          Swemson is an exponent of the “New Atheists” – a movement lead by none other that Richard Dawkins along with Sam Harris and another fellow by the name of Dennett. Christopher Hitchens is another “luminary” of note. The New Atheists are militants harkening back to the earlier atheist militancy of Stalinist Russia.

          The New Atheists are typically concerned with (at least) the following theses:

          It is almost certain that there is no God.
          Religions are dangerous and do not automatically deserve respect.
          Religious belief has a naturalistic evolutionary explanation.
          Belief in God and evolution are not compatible.
          Religion tends to subvert science.
          An autonomous secular morality is possible; morality does not presuppose God.
          Life is not meaningless without belief in God.
          Atheism is not discredited by the ‘atheist tyranny of Stalin.’

          Religious education of children is ‘child abuse’.
          Religion is a form of mental illness.

          New Atheism is ostensibly dedicated to at least two social goals: firstly, to guarantee the “integrity” of science in society; secondly, to strongly discourage religion and encourage its obsolescence to safeguard the rule of secular law. Many of us suspect that this is part of a greater Marxist subversion. And this is why I call people like Swemson “shills of the left.” They may masquerade as conservative types, but they serve leftist agendas.

          Of course, it is up to the observer to judge how “militants” would best bring about the “obsolescence” of religion in America. Or to what extent they would go to prevent their version of “child abuse.” However, these alarming ambitions would seem best accomplished here in the same way they are in totalitarian societies everywhere. By murder and deprivations.

          Atheists will always tend toward totalitarianism in their public manifestations. The individual personality notwithstanding, atheists are lethal in power groups. Why? Because, their entire motivation is bent toward denying a basic human impulse to others, while yet admitting they have no absolute justification for doing so. Atheism is characterized by classic Marxian doublespeak at every level. They will also employ any manner of deception or tactic to achieve their goals.

          • swemson permalink
            October 25, 2009 12:10 am

            Well the fact that you’ve never read or understood Richard Dawkins, is just as obvious as the fact that you don’t understand Ayn Rand either…. But you at least got it right in some of your 10 points about Dawkins

            It is almost certain that there is no God….
            Nah.. it’s merely not very likely….

            Religions are dangerous and do not automatically deserve respect.
            OK.. The indeed can be dangerous, and they certainly DON’T deserve respect

            Religious belief has a naturalistic evolutionary explanation.
            SORRY.. there is no rational explanation for religious thought

            Belief in God and evolution are not compatible.
            You sure got that one right !

            Religion tends to subvert science.
            Don’t be too fast to gloat… It’s just the other way around…

            An autonomous secular morality is possible; morality does not presuppose God.
            You sure got that one right too…

            Life is not meaningless without belief in God.
            Right again.. it’s only the belief in god that’s meaningless

            Atheism is not discredited by the ‘atheist tyranny of Stalin.’
            Now you’re just being an ass again… Stalin was a cold blooded mass murderer.. Atheism had nothing to do with it.

            Religious education of children is ‘child abuse’.
            I happen to agree with that.. especially to really young children.
            But I have nothing against in a course in comparative religion in college,
            once the kids learn how to think for themselves…

            Religion is a form of mental illness.
            Only for zealots like you who become so obsessed with it…

            And I just love it the way you keep hammering us with your lies about atheism leading to totalitarianism..

            And of course the dishonesty of our tactics as we trying to poison the minds of naive children like you…

            Give it a rest already… you’re starting to bore the crap out of me again

            • Jonathan permalink
              October 25, 2009 12:19 am

              These are the tenets of your New Atheism, Swemson. Not my views, but yours.

              I’m a little more familiar with Dawkins than you might know. Dawkins sees evolution not as the outcome of a struggle of organisms, but as a struggle between genes seeking to copy themselves. The bodies they inhabit are secondary. He discards the Darwinian principle that individuals are the units of selection. This is a false idea. Natural selection deals with bodies. It favours some bodies because they are better suited to their environment. The gene is a piece of DNA enclosed within the cell nucleus, large numbers of which contribute to the body parts. Selection does not work directly on parts.

              The interesting thing is the Marxists generally criticize Dawkins’ foaming at the mouth militant atheism. They see religion more as a response to misery and suffering, whereas Dawkins blames religion for it more stridently.

              • swemson permalink
                October 25, 2009 12:28 am

                Wow… you sure do know a bunch of big words…

                And to that I thought of myself as one of them “ole style” atheists… how could I have been so blind?

                Dawkins ALWAYS has a twinkle in his eye as he laughs at fools like you…

                You’re the only one who’s foaming at the mouth…

                And it’s obvious to EVERYONE here with the exception of a few other brainwashed fools like you..

          • J Hampton permalink
            October 25, 2009 6:39 am

            I believe there is a term for it called a useful idiot. a sheep. It appears he lives in fearthus the constant attack and drum beat.

            • J Hampton permalink
              October 25, 2009 6:42 am

              I have to laugh at who is foaming at the mouth here. Jonathan you must be sitting back laughing your butt off at this. You have won already, keep your towel ready.

              • swemson permalink
                October 25, 2009 12:09 pm

                Why don’t the two of you get together and be pals…

                They have nice little rooms with padded walls for people like you

    • Michael permalink
      October 25, 2009 5:50 am

      Adam and Eve is just a story to explain how god created people, not real people from the past.

      • October 25, 2009 5:59 am

        Prove it

      • swemson permalink
        October 25, 2009 12:26 pm

        Michael…

        I suspect, that even if it was not their CONSCIOUS intent, that the men involved in writing the bible were trying justify the idea that they were special and different from the other animals, by starting the fable saying the “god created man in his own image”.. wow ! We’re all just like god…

        Of course man is indeed special, but religion has the reasons for that all wrong as usual.. The REAL reason why we’re special, is because we have both a RATIONAL and a VOLITIONAL mind…

        (Attn, Johnny, Cas, Jenn, JH, & the rest of the children… It’s time to take notes here.)

        The church of course has an answer for everything… They’ll tell you that our minds are a gift from god, and that all of mankind’s great accomplishments were inspired by god, etc., etc., etc…. ad nauseum…

        This is why religion is so damaging to mankind… because it teaches children to be satisfied with simple childish explanations for everything, rather than encouraging them to think independently and to feel free to question everything.

        In this way, religion has been holding back the advance human knowledge and therefore society for thousands of years… If the obsolete fairy tale had been abandoned back then, I wouldn’t be surprised if we had made our first moon landing in the 17th century…

        Thus endeth the lesson…

        • Jonathan permalink
          October 25, 2009 1:24 pm

          The Marxists got the jump on us in the space race. Why don’t you embrace their ideology overtly? The only reason they didn’t get to the moon first is because we sidetracked them on the Cold War.

          All Men are ENDOWED by their CREATOR… I’ll take the premise that man is special over the pseudo-scientific fallacy that man is nothing but a paramecium, any day of the year. You can say what you want about your intentions. They mean nothing. The reality is that your way leads to totalitarianism. Even the Marxists have the sense to ostensibly reject such hard line Dawkins think – even if only for the sake of short term goals.

          Why do you keep flip flopping on your philosophy?

          One minute you have nothing against “real” religion. The next, you are telling us religion is blanket bad. You aren’t leveling with us about your real beliefs. You are patronizing your audience. What’s funny is that you write each post as if only your intended “patronizee” is reading it.

          Your moral relativism is precisely betrays you as a leftist. You can’t help it. But keep debating me. You’re doing a wonderful job of proving my point about atheists being leftists defacto… by just being yourself. Personally, I’m coming to the conclusion that you are a troller or a Manchurian Candidate.

  25. Richard Ketchum permalink
    October 24, 2009 9:55 am

    The base is energized by what turns off the left, when conservatives run as conservatives they win, when they run as moderates they lose. Why do so many people have trouble understanding this?

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 5:42 pm

      Richard….

      Step back and take a deep breath….

      I agree 100% with what you just said…

      The problem is that NOBODY is saying that conservatives have to disguise themselves as moderates to get elected..

      It’s sufficient for them to clearly and repeatedly explain to the electorate WHY their conservative views on capitalism and the free market system, or their belief in the necessity for an STRONG national defense system is what is needed for America to get back to where she belongs.

      Does that make them sound like moderates to anyone ?

    • October 25, 2009 6:02 am

      They have tunnel vision

  26. Frank permalink
    October 24, 2009 10:36 am

    “Science and religion have never been incompatible.”

    Science and fundamentalist religion are frequently incompatible. If you think the Earth is only 10,000 years old or so. as the Bible fundamentalists posit, and that all species were made at once in their current forms, then you are hopelessly at odds with science, with the geological and fossil record, and with the foundation for all of biology and modern medicine.

    “What you are preaching, Frank, is exceedingly bad science”

    What, precisely, am I ‘preaching’?

    I do not have faith in man to solve all of humanities problems. Indeed it is man’s own irrationality and his most destructive of inventions, ‘religion’, that are at the root of most of it .

    Faith has a consistent failed as a way of knowing truth. This is hard to deny given the fact that the major world religions are strikingly different from each other and offer different versions of ‘truth’ . Since no one religion can claim more than a 1/3 of the worlds religious faithful, that means that at BEST, 2/3 of the worlds people have been misled into embracing completely false religious worldviews based on faith.

    Given the success of science in discovering truth (the results of which dominate every aspect of your life and virtually every manmade thing you touch), we must see faith in comparison as a rather unreliable and bad means to know anything.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 5:58 pm

      Bravo !

      Frank again gets it completely.

      To all you religious loons, please answer the following questions:

      Do you believe in Zeus ?

      Do you believe in Thor ?

      Do you believe in Odin ?

      Do you believe in Athena ?

      Do you believe in Quetzalcoatl (Aztec) ?

      Do you believe in Poseidon ?

      Do you believe in Osiris ?

      Do you believe in Taranis (Celtic) ?

      Well obviously we actually think alike…

      People like Frank and I just take the concept one god further…

      • theblanque permalink
        October 24, 2009 10:05 pm

        The short answer: Because all those “gods” are too small to be God.

        To you atheists, I ask the following question: Can you, without resorting to caricature, hyperbole, or fiction, accurately describe what Christians actually believe?

        • swemson permalink
          October 24, 2009 10:22 pm

          Well isn’t it obvious ?

          You believe that only YOU can possibly know which version of the fairy tale is the RIGHT one….

          Ya gotta get a lot more creative than that to trip me up…

          • theblanque permalink
            October 24, 2009 10:27 pm

            In other words, you can’t accurately describe what Christians actually believe.

            • swemson permalink
              October 25, 2009 12:14 am

              Keep trying putz !

              You’re BS tactics don’t work on people like me…

              • swemson permalink
                October 26, 2009 1:19 pm

                In other words, you can’t

                In other words, you can’t

                In other words, you can’t

                In other words, you can’t

                Don’t you see that you’re beginning to sound like a broken record ?

                Common.. you’re obviously stealthy… you can come up with another strategy…

                Here’s a tip…. TRY THINKING OBJECTIVELY FOR A CHANGE !

      • October 25, 2009 6:33 am

        So swenson, please explain irreducible complexity-the bombadier beetle or the giraffe?

        Since you are an intelligent person.

        Much love

        • swemson permalink
          October 25, 2009 1:00 pm

          Wayne..

          The irreducible complexity issue has been at the heart of both religious AND scientific inquiry for several centuries at least…

          A really incredible thing happened in the federal court during the Dover ID trial..

          The Thomas More Law Center, which financed the defense of ID, came up with a really cool argument.. They came up with an incredible organism, a bacterial flagella that actually has a small molecular level motor that helps it get around…

          The visual graphics of this were incredible, and many people when seeing that for the first time could easily assume that it was so miraculously complex that it HAD to have been designed by some form of superior intelligence…

          That illusion didn’t last long, as the lawyers for the rebuttal immediately showed proof of other microscopic organisms that had several different less complex versions of the same motor, from which it had OBVIOUSLY evolved…

          In another one of their attacks on Darwin, they claimed that his theory was incorrect because it had never discovered the so-called missing link between the first land based animals and those from the sea…. It was a serious argument to be sure… as it could lead one to decide that god created man, at some time after the creation of the sun and the earth… possibly even millions of years later.

          And guess what happened then ?

          In what I jokingly refer to as a divine intervention in defense of Darwin’s theory, archeologists had just issued a report on the discovery of a transitional form between primitive fish and terrestrial amphibians, with characteristics of both species found in the fossil…

          Once again, Darwin’s theory was vindicated.

          Look… No real scientist will tell you that science will definitely discover every detail of the creation of our world.. but you have to admit that they’ve come up with one hell of a lot of answers, especially in the last 100 years….

          But science keeps trying to find more and more answers through the use of logic and the scientific method, while religion continues to depend on faith to answer everything….

          I’m not even criticizing the concept of “faith”… I have complete faith that the US Marine Corps will continue to protect and defend our country right down the last man…

          The difference is that I don’t KNOW for a FACT that that will happen….

  27. sovereignjim permalink
    October 24, 2009 10:39 am

    I have no problem with a moral atheist but they need to admit to themselves that the claim that there is no God is an unprovable belief.

    • October 24, 2009 12:53 pm

      Well technically every belief is “unprovable.” Nothing can be “proven” to 100% certainty. Arguments and ideas can only be supported with evidence.

      • swemson permalink
        October 24, 2009 6:04 pm

        Thanks David…

        Sovereignjim doesn’t understand that despite what some of the zealots around here keep saying, Atheists don’t claim there is no god…

        You can’t prove a negative…

        Religious people are the ones who make the claim that an invisible, unknowable, all powerful being exists up in the sky……..

        Atheists, when confronted with superstitions and fairy tales like this simply ask the question:

        What makes you believe that ?

        Hey David…

        This is one hell of a brawl you started here pal… 🙂

        • October 24, 2009 6:41 pm

          It’s also the most popular post of the day. Well done.

          And 103 comments so far is pretty impressive.

          • Michael permalink
            October 25, 2009 5:55 am

            Do I get any credit?

            • swemson permalink
              October 25, 2009 1:07 pm

              What’s the record David… ?

              Last time I looked it was over 200

            • swemson permalink
              October 25, 2009 1:11 pm

              You’re certainly entitled to an “assist”

              To the children: It’s a soccer term… please look it up before accusing me hatefully insulting Michael

  28. Frank permalink
    October 24, 2009 10:57 am

    sovereignjim, I admit that the claim that there is no God is an unprovable belief, just as it is unprovable belief that there is no Zeus, no Thor, no magic invisible elephants in space, and no Flying Spaghetti Monster. None of them can be disproven.

    But I didn’t come here to argue religion or philosophy. I came here to tell one reason why the GOP lost votes among moderate republicans, and why the country is going to be dominated by Chinese technology soon unless the Religious Right stays the hell out of science education and stops trying to sabotage it to preserve religious faith.

    Republicans need no appeal to religion nor claim of religious moral foundation to succeed and win arguments on national issues like immigration, taxes, foreign relations.

    In short, the GOP needs to take a little lesson from Thomas Jefferson:

    Thomas Jefferson’s “The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom”:

    “Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry….The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

    • Jonathan permalink
      October 24, 2009 11:20 am

      Frank says:

      “But I didn’t come here to argue religion or philosophy. I came here to tell one reason why the GOP lost votes among moderate republicans, and why the country is going to be dominated by Chinese technology soon unless the Religious Right stays the hell out of science education and stops trying to sabotage it to preserve religious faith.”

      You should have stuck to your promise. But then you went and started arguing and got in trouble.

      Any moderate Republican who voted for Obama because of science education is an idiot.
      What do you think the left will do for science education? Bring back eugenics most likely. Lobby for forced abortion and population control most likely.

      BAD POLITICS is why the country is being dominated by China. And did you know that there are 10,000 new converts to Christianity a DAY in China right now? Did you know that Russia is undergoing religious revival? China may very well be the largest Christian country in the world right now.

      The Religious Right has absolutely NO INFLUENCE on what is taught in public schools and universities all around this country. The humanists run the school system, and it is a mess.

      What people believe about evolution and the big bang has ZERO IMPACT on their day to day lives.

      The only reason YOU are so uptight about religion is because the leftists are using it as a wedge issue to stir up another coalition – which you are part of in this case – to overturn American institutions and traditions. A monotheist America can never be a Marxist America.

      If you resent the moral foundation, then go join the Democrats. They already think just like you 98 percent of ways. You could be a conservative Dem like Joe Liebermann and fight for fiscal restraint as a secular humanist with all the attendant powerful arguments. You can give hope to the poor in the inner cities by explaining Ayn Rand’s principles to them.

      The GOP sure does need to take a lesson from Jefferson. But they can’t, because they are mostly turned to secular humanist non-conservative ideals.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 7:01 pm

      And the smears just keep on coming from our pal Jonathan…

      Jonathan points out how you “got in trouble” and the true reason why you are so “uptight” about religion..

      Isn’t that nice of him……

      He obviously knows how vehemently opposed to the christian “moral foundation” you are, so you had best take his advice and join the democratic party right away, before the religious police bust you for who and what you really are…

      Don’t you just love the way he weaves his words to paint all of us as leftists…….

      “They already think just like you 98 percent of ways.”

      Isn’t it amazing how he’s intimately familiar with virtually all of your thoughts… And tells you about your various political options are in such helpful detail….

      Well he should… right ? Because he obviously knows so much more about the way you think than you do…

      That’s the insanity and bigotry that religion has instilled in his pathetically small mind…

      He gets in all his cheap shots… even one against Ayn Rand, to paint evangelicals as the ONLY ones in the world who know the truth about all of this, when in fact just the opposite is true, that they’re the most narrow minded, intolerant, and bombastic screwballs on the planet…

      Go forth Jonathan, and lead us through this horrid world to the happy valley, where all the righteous live… you and you alone know the path to enlightenment…

      Wow… idiocy like this is STILL hard for me to believe sometimes…

      • Jonathan permalink
        October 24, 2009 7:48 pm

        Wow. I would wager you Swemson, that a review of your posts would persuade more than an average number of people that you are the fanatic.

        It’s very clear that you feel somewhat insecure.

        • swemson permalink
          October 24, 2009 10:32 pm

          You need some new material…

          You’ve used that “insecurity” nonsense too many times… especially when the exact opposite is true… that it is precisely the CONFIDENCE with which I make my atheistic comments that makes you so insecure with your childish fantasies and superstitions, that COMPELS you to continue to attack me like the rabid dog that you are…

          But by all means… do keep trying…

        • J Hampton permalink
          October 25, 2009 6:46 am

          Jonathan you nailed it. he simply losy control and if you lose control you lose the debate. Great job.

          • swemson permalink
            October 25, 2009 1:16 pm

            Congratulations !

            And welcome to the club.. your permanent membership has just been officially approved…

            Not get back into your padded cell with Johnny, Cas & Jenn….

            • swemson permalink
              October 25, 2009 1:17 pm

              Sorry..

              NOW get back into your…..etc…

  29. Jonathan permalink
    October 24, 2009 11:02 am

    If there is no sense in making a big deal about abortion and gay marriage, all you moderate pundits… then answer me this: Why does the left make such a big deal about them?

    In other words, why does the left make both issues a litmus test for everything? Including non-elected supreme court judges?

    Abortion. Gay marriage. Two planks in a larger platform. State run health care. One more plank.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 7:10 pm

      Jonathan so eloquently says: “answer me this:”

      Why does the left make such a big deal about them?

      Because blithering idiots like you can’t shut your ignorant mouths about them even for a moment..

      It’s also why the left makes litmus tests about the issues, because they know that EVERY TIME they do, all of you loony bats come out of the attic, and help them show everyone else how STUPID anyone on the right is…

      Keep it up genius !

      • Jonathan permalink
        October 24, 2009 7:50 pm

        Somehow I don’t think you read my post correctly.

        • swemson permalink
          October 24, 2009 10:34 pm

          And I can hardly believe that anyone as STUPID as you can even use a computer…

        • J Hampton permalink
          October 25, 2009 6:48 am

          Hehehe
          Jonathan I told you you nailed him. Now you have me laughing at this poor angry man.

          • swemson permalink
            October 26, 2009 1:23 pm

            HeHeHe ?

            You actually SOUND like a giggling child…

            Have you made it through grade school yet ?

  30. Cas Balicki permalink
    October 24, 2009 11:10 am

    “…[H]is most destructive of inventions, ‘religion’…” No thought here to the scientifically minded atheists we have come to know and love as Communists, whose tally of dead runs to 100 million. Are we talking selective recall here, Frank?

    “Faith has a consistent failed as a way of knowing truth.” What truth? when it comes to E=mc2 yes. But, you’re arguing scientific consistency here, Frank, so prove to me by scientific reasoning the existence of love.

    “…[W]e must see faith in comparison as a rather unreliable and bad means to know anything.”
    Prove to me, again by scientific reason and without relying on computer projections, the actual and certain existence of global warming. And while you are expounding your proof, please remember that projection is not allowed as it is not fact, it is the belief, the faith if you will, that what has happened in past will continue to happen in future. Being scientifically minded, myself, I accept your premise that faith is not a good way to know anything, so faith in computer models is off the table in this discussion.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 7:22 pm

      But his partner Cas is a bit more eloquent when he says:

      “…[H]is most destructive of inventions, ‘religion’…” No thought here to the scientifically minded atheists we have come to know and love as Communists, whose tally of dead runs to 100 million. Are we talking selective recall here, Frank?

      See how adroitly he nails all of us for the true communists that we really are…. and how cleverly he insinuates that atheism is the true reason why those 100 million people died…

      Frank, so prove to me by scientific reasoning the existence of love.

      And how cleverly he proves that his irrational and narrow minded understanding of science & reality is the only valid way to think…

      Oh… Hold the phone !

      And how cleverly he manages to insinuate that atheists are behind the global warming hoax…

      Hey Cas… Do you ever actually listen to the utter stupidity of what you say… ?

      It’s REAL science that’s proved what an obvious bulls^*t story the global warming theory is…

      Damn… talk about brain dead zombies… you REALLY take the cake…

      • Jonathan permalink
        October 24, 2009 7:54 pm

        You are definitely a leftist. You haven’t asserted a single cogent argument anywhere. Just name calling and ad hominem attacks.

        The conservative movement doesn’t need people like you. Go fight for the left. You are a better fit on that side of the fence.

        • swemson permalink
          October 24, 2009 10:37 pm

          ROFLMAOBT !

          I’m laughing at you too hard to even think of an appropriate reply…

        • J Hampton permalink
          October 25, 2009 6:52 am

          Jonathan
          You are absolutely right. Nothing but hate and name calling he really is a sad man and it would be interesting to know what abuse set this off. But there is help I know if he wants it. But I repect the way you handeled yourself and did not resort to the same rancor.

          • Jonathan permalink
            October 25, 2009 9:33 am

            Why thank you Jack. What keeps me from getting angry is that I pried the caps lock key off my keyboard and duct taped over the hole it left. Just kidding. Actually, it’s always a good sign when they start calling you names. It shows you are winning the argument.

            • swemson permalink
              October 25, 2009 1:20 pm

              Do you two want some privacy…. ?

              I’m not offended if you kiss in public…

              After all, Jenn already told everyone I was gay !

  31. Frank permalink
    October 24, 2009 12:01 pm

    As I said, I have no interest in arguing religion or philosophy, or dancing with Cas Balicki’s ridiculous sstrawmen, because it nearly always proves to be an utterly futile, pointless waste of time to debate these things with the religious faithful, for whom scientific evidence holds no sway over faith.

    Gentlemen, you are welcome to your beliefs and any delusions you have about science and the validity of it’s methods. I have no interest in converting any of you. I will only leave you with some quotes I find to be illuminating about Americans ‘Christian Foundations’. Alas, I will not be here again to see any replies as I have more productive things to do.

    Benjamin Franklin (Founding Father)
    =============

    “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.” , from Poor Richard’s Almanack, 1758

    “I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.”

    “Some volumes against Deism fell into my hands. They were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle’s Lecture. It happened that they produced on me an effect precisely the reverse of what was intended by the writers; for the arguments of the Deists, which were cited in order to be refuted, appealed to me much more forcibly than the refutation itself. In a word, I soon became a thorough Deist.” – Benjamin Franklin, from his autobiography

    John Adams (2nd pres)
    =========

    “The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” John Adams, Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

    Thomas Jefferson (3rd pres.) Deist
    =====================

    “Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia

    “The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

    James Madison (4th pres.) Deist
    ===================

    “In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.”

    “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” James Madison, April 1, 1774

    • Glen NOT Beck permalink
      October 24, 2009 2:20 pm

      I am a Conservative Christian Evangelical. Much of your post is so right. We were more founded on Greek principles than Christian ones. The freedom of religion is from the Masons. The Christian American “founding fathers” are more Wesley and Edwards than Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin. There is no doubt that Christianity played a role in the foundation of our country and that without the support of the Christian community, it would not have happened as it did. The common Christians in the churches are the ones that demanded the changes in the constitution and not the “Founding Fathers.” Without these Christian leaders, our revolution could have looked more like France’s revolution. So, yes, the “founding fathers” did not necessarily use the Bible in the founding of America as much as many Christian Conservatives would say, however, the influence of Christianity upon America is undeniable.

      Now the bad. . .The marrying of Americanism and Christianity, is what I see as one of the biggest reasons for the downfall of Christianity in America. Christians compromised their doctrines and beliefs to make Americanism fit. They idolized men they would not allow to be members of their church based on their beliefs. Americanism is NOT Christianity.

      Bible Believing Evangelicals were historically persecuted by almost all governments in Europe and especially by the Catholic Church. They were burned at the stake along side the witches and the Muslims and mistreated by the witches and Muslims as well. Unfortunately, thanks to Beza, Bible Believing Christians adopted politics, protest, and nationalism into their practice even though it is forbidden in scripture. The problem is, as Swemson may have unknowingly picked up on, when Christianity turned into Americanism (or nationalism as in Britain), Christianity was no longer necessary as one can get the same results with just Americanism.

      I used to be a Republican to the umth degree. However, I now believe that politics have ruined the purity of the gospel in America. I believe the Republican party has used Christians to advance their agenda and side track them from their task of spreading love and the good news of Jesus Christ. In the process, Christians are now equated to war, protest, intolerance, hypocrisy, guns, and the Crusades. Thomas Jefferson was wrong, the Crusades killed many, many Bible Believing Christians. The slaughter of thousands in the name of Christ was not done by Bible Believing Christians, but by Pagans who used Jesus as a tool to further their own ends. Just look at European history and study the Kings. They were not Christians in the Bible sense, but immoral pagans. Why do you think they forbade the reading of the Bible by the common man? They did not want to be found out for what they really were. Today, you can see these same types on Christian TV and in politics.

      Bible Believing Christians must realize that you cannot legislate people into Christianity. To try to do so will only alienate Christians and cloudy up the purity of the gospel. It is understandable that many Christians are worried about the coming persecution from the government. However, Bible Believing Christianity has thrived underground in China even with socialism. Bible Believing Christians being able to practice their religion openly is a fairly new happening. Though it is much more pleasant to be able to worship without fear, persecution has served to purify the church in the past, I guess we may very well see this happening again.

      • swemson permalink
        October 24, 2009 8:00 pm

        Thank you Glen…

        For proving that one doesn’t have to behave like a blithering moron in order believe in the bible…

        Would that the entire christian world thought as you do…

        Thank you for explaining so well that while religion did indeed play an import role in the creation of this country, that one doesn’t need to be a christian in order to be a productive and patriotic American today.. Your more narrow minded distant relatives can’t seem to grasp the complexity of what you clearly understand… They’re too busy hurling smear and insults at anyone who’s NOT a christian like they are…

        Thank you for explaining how so many perished in the NAME of god…

        Thank you for pointing out what lying hypocrites the TV evangelists and the phony “reverends” like Sharpton and Jackson really are.. posing as a man of god has been one of the favorite strategies of cheap con men and hustlers throughout human history….

        Thank you for pointing out that non-believers like me can indeed have an OBJECTIVE view of the world… We know the difference between slimy hustlers like Jim & Tammy Fay, and REAL christian leaders like Billy Graham, who actually LIVE according to the principles they preach….

        And thank you most of all for pointing out that nobody, even the most pious christians can legislate what’s in a man’s heart and mind…. What’s important to RATIONAL christians like you is to live according to your principles and spend your time in spreading peace and love to the world, rather then wasting your time in fruitless efforts to defile and defame everyone who doesn’t think exactly the way evangelicals do.

        Thank you Glen… I’d love to spend an evening breaking bread and sharing a fine bottle of wine with you… and if my friend Joseph White is available, I’d like to invite him along as well…. Hopefully we will one day !

    • Cas Balicki permalink
      October 24, 2009 3:41 pm

      ‘“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” James Madison, April 1, 1774’

      Is there no room for conscience in this quote? By splitting man’s loyalty between a temporal and a spiritual power (render unto Caesar…) that atheists claim is only myth, the church freed all of mankind. It matters not that this freedom may have its genesis in fact or fiction, the result is still the same. The reason I say the church freed mankind is that no earthly king or dictator would ever allow such a division of loyalty to compromise his rule unless forced into it by subjects acting in good conscience (Magna Carta, American Revolution, anyone). So either dissent is the highest form of patriotism or it is not, and the distinction arises out of that indefinable we refer to as conscience. Yet, how is ones conscience proved? Is there even such a thing we call conscience? Or are we, humans, simply some higher order of dog looking for mommy’s pat on the head?

      We know that sociopaths have no conscience. And if their pathology is such that it is harmful to society we lock them up, which is quite something given that we can’t scientifically prove the existence of “conscience” and we certainly can’t scientifically define what makes a conscience good as in two parts bad three parts good. Still, in fairness to that point we don’t actually lock anyone up in this country for a lack of conscience, but for what that lack causes them to do. Yet, the term prisoner of conscience in contrast to the sociopath’s potential lack abounds through our societies as if we truly know what conscience is. Still, I think we can agree that we know, at the very least, how to distinguish between a sociopathic nutter and a prisoner of conscience for some of us act on this knowledge daily.

      We also know about ego, libido, and id, but these philosophies have not moved beyond mere semantics, as we are no closer to knowing the good or bad in conscience than we have ever been. So, until we actually have a scientific definition of what is good this is one aspect of both our science and our polity that we will have to take on faith. Let me make myself as clear as I can be lest I am accused of propping up straw men, what makes us human is the simple fact that we can function both as scientists and as moralists. In short we can calculate and we can scheme. We can love and we can hate. Our science rules the day when we fly to the moon, our emotions when we love our children. Only one of these aspects of our human nature can be proven in a scientific sense, the other is proven only in the eyes of the beholder, which is to say it has no scientific existence outside of that beholder. If the latter, unproven as it is, be debility I’ll have more of it and less of James Madison!

      • swemson permalink
        October 24, 2009 8:20 pm

        Sorry Cas…. you’re not invited….

        You’ll have a better time out there beating the bush for pagans to abuse anyway…

        And congrats on another excellent pile of religious psycho babble… it’s one of your better ones…

        I just need to point out a few things to you however….

        First, the church didn’t free mankind… In many cases it has sheltered and protected mankind, but in others the church has been responsible for an enormous amount of cruelty and oppression…

        Second, ego, libido, and id are NOT philosophies….

        Thirdly, and most importantly, you need to understand that everything needn’t be broken down into either science or faith….

        We don’t need science to prove the difference between good and bad

        We don’t need science to prove the existence of conscience

        We don’t need science to make us love our children

        Those things are NOT what science is for…

        Science fares us very well in all of the areas where it should be employed…

        We have another tool to use in dealing with such matters…

        It’s called common sense !…..

        Feel free to call it your “god given” common sense if that makes you more warm and fuzzy inside… but don’t for a minute think that a huge percentage of right minded people need to come by the “truth” about such things through “faith”…

        Our plain old rational and logical common sense works just fine… thank you very much.

      • Jonathan permalink
        October 24, 2009 10:40 pm

        Don’t worry about James Madison. The quote is out of context and misleadingly presented as a viewpoint that Madison didn’t have.

        • swemson permalink
          October 25, 2009 12:19 am

          I see..

          Now you’re trying the old “baffle em with bulls*^t” tactic again…

          It’s actually quite refreshing for a change…

  32. Glen NOT Beck permalink
    October 24, 2009 1:01 pm

    The problem with Swemson’s post for those who are Evangelical Christians is that a major part of what they are trying to defend is freedom of religion. This is coming under attack by both the Democrats and the Republicans. More so by the Democrats, of course, but the Republicans have not been the greatest in this area, either. Having a working economy and a job, or regaining our military strength is great, but pales in comparison to religious freedom and the freedom of personal ideas. We should note that the attack of Christian beliefs is usually only the beginning of the attack on the freedom of beliefs and ideas in general. After Christians are out of the way, everything else is up for grabs as well, ie the freedom to speak your mind about the government or to protest for or against a certain position. Even if one is an atheist, protecting the right to practice one’s religion is extremely important.

    The other problem is that the Religious Right is usually some of the most energized and active participants in the Republican party. They are probably the leaders and the majority of the Tea Party bunch. Much of the dullness for the Republicans in the 08 election was due to the fact that the Religious Right felt betrayed by the Party. They were wanting to be active, but felt left out until Palin. Without Palin, contrary to many opinions, McCain would have most definitely done even worse. Also, the socialists are going to blast and lie and cheat whether someone says they are a Christian or not. Remember McCain was a candidate similar to what Swemson is wanting. He was the Dems favorite Republican till he ran against “The One.” Then they blasted him with both barrels just like if he was a Bible toting, gun loving, anti abortionist, hand raising Christian.

    To agee a bit with Swemson, I suppose Obama did help himself get elected because he was successful in hiding from the majority of Americans how truly socialistic his beliefs were. This is, I’m guessing, the equivalent to what Swemson is saying about hiding one’s religious beliefs. However, how many people feel betrayed by Obama now because of this? Cover up and dishonesty is suppose to be the other party, not the Republicans.

    Lastly, does this mean that politicians must now hide their religious beliefs to get elected? Swemson makes it sound like admitting you are a Christian is almost like admitting to having the plague. If this is the case, how long can it be till those “without the plague” from both parties try to get rid of the “problem?” Without the freedom of religion and the freedom of ideas, who cares who is President? Religious persecution is still religious persecution whether is comes from a Capitalist or a Socialist.

    To sum it up, a major part of the Republican base will not vote for a candidate whom they perceive to not see freedom of religion as a priority. Does this mean they must come out and say they are a Christian to prove this? We’ll see.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 9:08 pm

      Glen;

      You have a few misconceptions about what I’m trying to say… unfortunately I don’t communicate my ideas as well as some..

      When I say that my one and only goal in defeating the far left is to help us retain ALL of the freedoms and liberties that our founding fathers bestowed upon us, the freedom to worship as we wish is right up there at the top of that list of freedoms & liberties.. and I doubt that you’d deny that the freedom to NOT believe in god, is also on that last..

      When I say that I believe that it would do us well to tone down our religious rhetoric for a while.. I’m in no way suggesting that ANY religious people should deny their true faith at all… I’m just suggesting that the future of ALL of our freedoms RIGHT NOW, may be better served if an infinitesimal number of us… “our candidates” would just stick to the issues of our economy and our security the next few times around… simply in order to prevent the far left smear merchants from twisting our beliefs around into a weapon that they can use against us…

      I agree that the religious right has historically been a big part of our base, but after a few years of Obama, I’m pretty darned certain that none of them will vote for ANY democratic candidate for quite a while… They’re certainly smart enough to know who’s on their side and who stands against them…

      You’re also wrong when you say that McCain was typical of the candidate that I wanted in the last election… The ONLY candidate that I had any enthusiasm for in the entire election cycle was Palin… McCain was a war hero, and all that, but over the last several election cycles, he’s proven that he’s been seduced by the dark side of the force, and that his political power and prestige was the only thing he really believed in… You’ll probably be even more surprised when I tell you that I was rooting for Hillary in the weeks leading up to the conventions, because I honestly saw her as the candidate who would do far less HARM to our country than either McCain and most certainly than Obama… I had to get blasted in order to work up the intestinal fortitude to think that way, and needed to cleanse myself later with more booze and lots of long hot showers, because I detested Hillary so deeply…. but I still think I was right to be rooting for her as I was…

      I also do not think that having our republican candidates refuse to talk publicly about their religious feelings, is anywhere near the degree of dishonestly that Obama used and continues to use today to hide his true identity to the masses… I’m guessing that you’d also agree with me on that….

      You also mischaracterize me when you say that I believe that an admission of religious beliefs is similar to having the plague… If you re-read what I written in this blog, you’ll understand that I in no way think that denying one’s true religious identity is the way things need to be or should be in the future… I’m ONLY talking about the here and now… because I truly believe that we’re all of a sudden faced with a true emergency, and that we desperately need to fight our hearts out to prevent losing ALL of our freedoms and liberties in the next several years… Maybe I’m over estimating the degree of this crisis, but I’m just a burned out old Marine who still believes that when faced with as dangerous an enemy as Obama, that “better safe than sorry” is the only smart way to prepare for the battle… In fact I hope I am wrong…

      And finally, I can assure you that your religious freedoms need have no fear of capitalism… The natural human desire for profit, will us happy to build you as many churches and print as many bibles as you want.. The marxists are your only true enemy…

      And I really do believe that religious people in America right now are WELL aware of who there true enemies are when they enter the voting booth…

      • Glen NOT Beck permalink
        October 25, 2009 9:38 pm

        Swemson,

        Thanks for the comments. You prove what I tell my children, “You can learn something from anyone, even a bum on the street.” Please, know that I am not calling you a bum on the street by any means, but you’re atheism is definitely different from my core beliefs.

        Also, thanks for the clarifications. It is amazing how much we agree politically. Let me see then if I get what you meant in your original comment. I will try a lame attempt to clarify. Were you trying to say that many religious politicians seem to speak down to the non religious, arrogantly talk Christian values, and this makes being a vocal Christian unelectable? One of my pet peeves are politicians (and TV commentators) who call themselves Christians and then put down and make fun of the Democrats or even just “non believers.” A problem with the way American Christians are perceived in the media (some of this is right, some not so right) is that they are seen as self serving. Even their acts of kindness are now suspect because of this. Much of this is due to the fact that many who call themselves Christians (or are sympathetic to Christians) really do come across this way. These Christians seen in the media are demeaning and even cruel and come across self serving and disingenuous. Most non believers know that Christians are at least suppose to be kind. This only verifies the idea that Christians are hypocrites. Then there are the many TV evangelists who preach health and wealth and skim a large portion off the top of the giving of the poor. Though many of these people are only pseudo-Christians who want to benefit financially or politically by using God, they are who the MSM focus on when they want to display “Christianity.” If you are saying that any Republican politician running for President needs to distance them-self from this type of Christianity, I whole heartedly agree.

        Here’s some problems, though. First, when non Christians write about Christianity, they most often paint the whole of Christianity with one brush. There are huge differences between true Catholics, Protestants, Mormans, Jehovah Witnesses, and Bible Believing Christians. Many so called Christians in America today don’t even believe the Bible or pick and choose what they want to believe. Yet “non Christians” throw all of them into the same Christian pie.

        Maybe next time you write, be specific about what you do not like coming from the “Christian” camp instead of speaking about Christians in general terms. This may alleviate the defensiveness of many who call themselves Christians. You must remember, for the last thirty years or so, “Christians” have been ridiculed and worse in all forms of media. They are looking at an America now where Christians may soon be facing jail time for just speaking some of their beliefs. Some have grown tired of “turning the other cheek” (though this is still in the Bible). Also, just as the media has painted Christians unjustly, many church leaders have painted all unbelievers with the same brush. Many Christians are led to believe that any non Christian is out to get them. You may be surprised to know that many Christians are frustrated with some of the same things you find so offensive in “Christianity.” Naming the problems instead of the group may prove more successful in changing minds.

        The globalists have been using “divide and conquer” for decades now. They are masters at perpetrating chaos and fear amongst the population. They are pitting like minded people against each other. Many Christians and Non Christians alike have fallen into their trap. When my wife and I first got married, we used to argue about different subjects only to find out we were saying the exact same thing. The difference was how we were describing the situation. Maybe try and speak to the Christians about the problems you see from their point of view if possible.

        Just a thought, what would you think of a candidate that was an open Christian not afraid of admitting their faith, but one who displayed kindness, honor, dignity, fortitude and no meanness? One who came across with the understanding of the issues, had good ideas with the ability to explain them, and was believable in his/her caring about the American people? People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. Don’t know of any candidate like this, but would this type of openly Christian candidate be acceptable to you? Thinking about this and in your defense, even if they were this type of a person, I suppose the MSM would find a way to place them into their “Christian Box.”

        So, I guess, I see your point, however I don’t necessarily agree with your solution. I must admit, I don’t have an alternative solution, though. That is why, at least for now and to the horror of family members, I no longer call myself a Republican and have decided that Christians should cease from concentrating on politics as the solution to try to save American Christianity and start to put their emphasis on spreading care, love, prayer, and the gospel.

        To my defense for any Christians that may be reading this, think about this. We have made those who should be our “ministry” into our “enemy.” If a man is your enemy, why should he listen to you or trust you for his eternity. Also, electing a politician sympathetic to Christians will have no lasting effect unless the hearts and minds of the American people are changed toward Christians. The word “repentance” basically means a change in the way you think or a change in your beliefs. In Christian terms, it means a changing what you believe about God, others, and yourself to align yourself to a Biblical view. It does not mean trying to change the way you act in your own power to appease an angry God. What Christians need to survive is a national revival of this type of repentance. Without this, at least for Bible Believing Christians, it doesn’t matter who becomes the next President. America will continue its race towards a secular, anti Christian country.

        Just one more thing, Swemson, I don’t know if this site allows this, but if you are interested in a good book explaining Biblical Christianity, not American Christianity, go to ” http://www.markcahill.org/request.html “. Request the book, “One Heartbeat Away, Your Journey Into Eternity.” Even if you disagree with the book, it may give you a perspective that will help you when speaking to Christians. He suggests a donation, but will send the book for free for anyone who asks. I heard him speak recently. He seemed to be the real deal. By the way, you can read Newt’s new book on God in America if you want, but know that I believe his book is about American Christianity, not Biblical Christianity. So, please, don’t judge Christianity by Newt’s book.

        • swemson permalink
          October 25, 2009 11:22 pm

          Glen;

          Thanks again for a serious & objective response to my previous reply…

          You’re right… we’re pretty much in sync on everything you just said..

          So let me answer a few of your questions:

          Were you trying to say that many religious politicians seem to speak down to the non religious, arrogantly talk Christian values, and this makes being a vocal Christian unelectable?

          Not at all… but I could see where that might have happened occasionally…

          Speaking of the sleazy TV evangelists you asked:

          If you are saying that any Republican politician running for President needs to distance them-self from this type of Christianity, I whole heartedly agree.

          I can’t see how that could hurt us, but it’s not the exact thrust of what I’m really try to say.. which is simply this:

          My one and only objective here is to try to pick up another one or two or even more percentage points of the vote in the coming elections, to insure that we’re using every single tool at our disposal to defeat these evil people who have hijacked our country. If we can do that, simply by having our candidates speak ONLY about the Big issues, (the economy, national security, & immigration) and refuse to let the far left media goad them into talking about their religious beliefs, so as to prevent them from twisting what they say and then using it to smear them with, then it’s worth a try. I’m not asking anyone to change or abandon ANY of their religious beliefs… ALL I want is for our candidates to tone it down on gay marriage & the other religious issues for the next few elections, UNTIL we get our country back and drive the far left loons out of the White House and our legislature.

          And I’m absolutely convinced that if the religious base on the right, in these special times, have to choose between voting for one of those far left marxist loons, who they KNOW are against religion, or of voting for some established and some new republican candidates who speak articulately about the critical national issues of the day, (the economy, national security & immigration) and when asked, say something like:

          Look… my personal religious views are not the issue right now, and so if you don’t mind I’m going to stick to the main issues that are so vitally important to All Americans right now, and keep my religious beliefs private for time being..

          I simply don’t believe that any of them are going to vote democratic this time… With the exception of a few fringe lunatics, there’s no question that christians are smart enough to know which candidate is the one most likely to be protective of their issues and concerns…

          Then you write:

          You may be surprised to know that many Christians are frustrated with some of the same things you find so offensive in “Christianity.” Naming the problems instead of the group may prove more successful in changing minds.

          I wouldn’t be surprised at all by that… but again.. I’m not even TRYING to change anyone’s mind…. I honestly don’t care what others choose to believe, or how they choose live…….. As long as what they do doesn’t violate any of MY OWN personal freedoms and liberties… I’m basically a live and let live kind of guy… I just us to get our country back…

          Maybe try and speak to the Christians about the problems you see from their point of view if possible.

          I’ve tried…. maybe I didn’t do a good job of it, but after being called a hateful, insecure marxist bigot and even a homosexual over and over and over again, by some of the more rabid zealots here, I didn’t hesitate to tell those jerks how I honestly felt about them and their ilk… my only regret is that I’ve also alienated a number of ordinary folks who aren’t such zealots themselves as well…

          On the positive side, I got to meet a few people like you…, and that’s well worth alienating 100 zealots if that’s what it costs…

          Just a thought, what would you think of a candidate that was an open Christian not afraid of admitting their faith, but one who displayed kindness, honor, dignity, fortitude and no meanness? One who came across with the understanding of the issues, had good ideas with the ability to explain them, and was believable in his/her caring about the American people?

          I’d vote for him in a heartbeat… why wouldn’t I ??? If you find him though, just to play it safe for the time being, ask him to tone down the rhetoric on gay marriage etc for a while… 🙂

          The guy you’re describing bears a bit of a resemblance to a rather well known Democratic president… Jed Bartlett, the fictional character from West Wing… An old style democratic, who wore his religion on his sleeve like that, and has real honor and integrity… is far more appealing to me than a republican like Nixon…

          So, I guess, I see your point, however I don’t necessarily agree with your solution. I must admit, I don’t have an alternative solution, though. That is why, at least for now and to the horror of family members, I no longer call myself a Republican and have decided that Christians should cease from concentrating on politics as the solution to try to save American Christianity and start to put their emphasis on spreading care, love, prayer, and the gospel.

          Look.. I get it.. and I like the way you think… but I must make 2 last points…

          The first is that I don’t know if I’m right or wrong either… It’s just a theory, and like some theories, perhaps impossible to prove either way…… What I strongly believe is that at this moment in history, we’ve got nothing to lose by trying, because we may well be permanently screwed already, and if we’re not, it won’t take long for them to complete their take over. Desperate men do desperate deeds… Sarah Palin was a hail mary pass herself, and I’m pretty damn sure that she helped us far more than she hurt us…… but after a year or two with Obama, I think that we have to maximize every single weapon that we may have at our disposal….

          And it’s not just his slick talking BS that we have to worry about now… He’s got a few hundred billion of our tax dollars in his war chest… he has almost complete control of the judiciary, he’s got armies of ACORN, black panther, and union thugs at his beck and call, and on top of that, he’s got almost the entire media and 90% of the country’s lawyers on his team…. I’m also predicting that in the races where he thinks he’s vulnerable, that we’re going to see the biggest display of voter fraud in history…

          What do YOU think our chances are…. ?

          As I said, we may well have already lost the war before it’s even fought…

          The second is that with all I’ve said above, we simply can’t afford to have people like you abandon politics until we’ve won or we’re dead… We need as much help as we can possibly get, and I’m guessing that you can really help the cause…

          Peace brother !

          • Glen NOT Beck permalink
            October 26, 2009 10:07 pm

            Swemson,

            Thanks again for the reply. I love intelligent discussion with all people. At moments there you are sounding like my father. He is a great man and politically minded though we often disagree. We have had some deep discussions about this subject. He, like you I think, sees Obama is a great threat and believes almost anyone would be better than him. Also, thanks for the complements, as well. However, to answer what I think is your basic questions in your post, you may want to take them back as I might sound to you a little crazy now. But, anyway, here it goes.

            On the surface, there are extreme differences between the Republican and Democratic parties. However, I believe, the foundational goals of their leadership is basically the same. That goal is globalism with all nations under a single central global governance, currency, and under a single global religion. This requires a decline of American dominance of which, I believe, is the actual goal of the current administration. So, I guess, to answer one of your questions, yes and much to my father’s chagrin, I do believe we have already gone down the slippery slope too far.

            Let me explain further. As much as I disagree with atheists, I do not see them as philosophically America’s greatest threat. Our greatest threat right now is the rise in paganism which comes under many different names but basically states that we are all gods and need to come together globally and be of one mind to achieve Utopia, Nirvana, the higher conscience, also called the next step in evolution. You may be surprised to find out that these globalist pagans apparently see three main groups that they must defeat to achieve their goals. They are Christianity, Orthodox Judaism, and Atheism. They have been infiltrating our schools and our churches for many years now. Many of these pagans even call themselves Christians.

            Here are some questions. Have you ever wondered how George H Bush could run around the world with Bill Clinton while at the same time many of the Clinton cronies were saying such horrible things about W? Doesn’t make sense, does it? Remember Bush Sr, I believe, was the first President to use the term “New World Order” (a term right out of New Age paganism). How is it that Newt, who just wrote a book about God in America, also wrote the forward to another book by Alvin and Heidi Toffler, both New Age pagans? The Tofflers’ book promotes the “Third Wave” which basically calls for the abolishment of the old constitution in favor of a new global one. Newt did not just write the forward, but has actively promoted their ideas to colleagues and academics. Did you know Sarah Palin’s Christianity is dominionistic? Without going into it, suffice to say that, I believe many (not all) in this style of Christianity along with many in the Emergent Church movement, Catholics, Mormons, and the ecumenical movement among others will have no problem accepting the globalist agenda.

            Here’s another question. Why are so many prominent politicians from both parties members of the same NGO’s (Non-Governmental Organizations or “Think Tanks” which are usually closely aligned with the UN and made up of members from all over the world). NGO’s are actually far from being non-governmental organizations. They ARE non-nationalistic organizations, however. Much of our American policies actually start at these NGO’s. Another thing . . . Many call Obama a Muslim. I believe, however, one does not have to make that much of a jump from one of Michele’s quotes about Oprah (sorry I don’t have the exact quote in front of me), that she and Barack may be followers or are at least very sympathetic to the ideas of Oprah’s pagan New Age guru. I could go on. But if you want to, just google globalism and your favorite politicians and see where they stand. You may be surprised what you find out. Other scary googles are “depopulation” and “useless eaters.” Try doing those with Nixon, Carter, Bush Sr., Rockefeller, or Kissinger.

            By the way, I have not given up on politics per say. I just don’t believe that the “let’s get our man elected and everything will be OK” mentality works anymore (if it ever really worked). Both major parties and pretty much all third parties have been infiltrated with the globalist ideas. Also, you need major, major money to get elected to a high ranking political position now a day. That requires accepting money from the people with the money. You can not win on simply average Joe donations. Now when you accept this money, believe me, there are strings attached. Most all of these wealthy people hold to the globalist ideology. I’m sure you get where I am going with this.

            That is why, I believe, the only chance for America is a national revival to Biblical
            Christianity (not American Christianity as I talked about above as being so damaging). It is only Biblical Christianity that really holds the foundation of the values most people admire and that has the ability to stabilize a Republic style of government. No other religion really has a book quite like the Bible that offers so much freedom yet carries so much authority. Pretty much all of the problems we are facing economically, socially, environmentally, and politically are due to corruption. If all politicians, businessmen, and religious leaders chose to live their lives honestly and with integrity, so much would be different. The Bible, if followed, has the answers to solving this corruption. But it must be done one individual at a time. It cannot be done in mass or through legislation or simply through elections.

            All to say, the outcome of many elections, especially when it comes to the presidential races, appear to be predetermined anymore. What I mean by this is that the candidates from both parties, I believe, are now “preapproved” before even being able to run for office. This ensures that no matter what party wins, the globalists have a candidate that will be elected. I believe the two parties may highlight superficial differences and rile up their bases against each other, however their foundational agendas and beliefs are basically the same. As depressing as this may sound, it has been quite liberating for me. I no longer see Democrats, socialist, Muslims, (or atheists) as my enemy, but as my ministry. In other words, I want them to see how much Jesus loves them no matter what they’ve done or what they now believe politically or otherwise. I think this is what my God would want. I think this is the Christianity that is missing from America. I still do believe one should not be ashamed to state what they believe or to point out errors or policies that could be hurtful to others. Right now, though, I would rather focus my attention on encouraging individual lives than trying to get people elected who probably are actually hostile to my core beliefs anyway.

            I hope this makes sense. I have really enjoyed discussing issues with you.

            • swemson permalink
              October 26, 2009 11:22 pm

              Glen…

              Ditto… nice to hear from you too…

              My comments are as follows;

              I agree with you when you say that foundational goals of the leadership of both parties has been the same, in fact most people have no idea how closely they were actually tied to each other prior to BHO.

              You’re right on the money when you point to the example Bush #I and Clinton.

              Bush #I had an incredible CV.. True war hero, congressman, ambassador, CIA chief, VP to Reagan, etc… One of the things on his CV that almost nobody knows about and which some in the govt will probably still deny, is something that he did that no American official has ever done before or since, and that was that while he was serving as our ambassador to China, he was also covertly serving as the CIA station Chief for China as well…. Actually a rather unique accomplishment.

              His ties to the CIA are well known, but most people aren’t aware of how deeply Clinton was also involved with the CIA as well. In fact the one man, most responsible for Clinton getting elected was former CIA chief Bill Casey. There was a meeting between Casey and Clinton in which Casey told Clinton he would put Clinton on his short list for the white house. It was reported in “Compromised” by Terry Reed… The other anonymous character at that meeting working for Casey under a pseudonym, was actually Olie North.

              I could elaborate on their secret relationship for hours… and even more fascinating is the real story of how he actually got elected, but that’s not the issue here… The fact is they were both closely tied together by their common efforts towards the new world order you refer to…. I assume that Bush was more senior than Clinton in that pack of thieves, but I don’t know exactly where in the pecking order he really was… I suspect not very high….. We can speculate for weeks about the Trilaterals, or the Bilderbergs, but I think that they’re not really the people pulling the strings…. but they might be I guess. Their profile isn’t exactly a carbon copy of SMERSH… but questions do remain.

              The other thing that I believe most people don’t know about is how utterly corrupt the entire Bush political family establishment was for SO many years… Bush I & II are both descendants of one of the slimiest and most corrupt of ALL political families… I don’t know where W fit into the scheme, but I suspect that he was really just the amiable jerk who was next in line…. I only know of one seriously corrupt fellow in W’s political connections… and he certainly made some decisions that indicated that he was indeed a member of that team…. But with all of that said, he STILL even a small percentage of what the Clinton political team threw at him from the day he was sworn in… Hillary was clearly simply buying a little extra INSURANCE to guarantee her election in 2008… And BOY would I have paid dearly to have been a fly on the wall in her hotel room the night when it finally hit her that Obama had indeed stolen the prize from her..A recording of her words that night would be simply PRICELESS…

              Your entire premise as you elaborated, of the smoke screen covering how closely many of them were associated, is absolutely correct… But I believe that with the exception of a few really devious and deceitful Republicans who are still in congress & the senate, that those basic ties have now been shattered between the two parties by Obama… who’s playing an entirely new ballgame….. And it’s a take no prisoner hard ball game run right out of the Al Capone Chicago playbook….

              As to your comments about the diminishing influence of the VALUES and PRINCIPLES that religion teaches, I agree that it’s indeed responsible for a large % of what’s going on in the younger generations… PLEASE if you can, make it a point to watch the first 20 minutes of tonight’s Glen Beck show, because in it, he delivers a truly incredible speech on this specific issue… If you can find it on a friend’s DVR.. go out of your way to watch it… You will absolutely be mesmerized by it as I was…

              Of course, I lament the loss of the principles & values in the upbringing of Gen Y, but not the church itself… As I’ve said before, all of those basic fundamental values, can be arrived at through rational thought, without the help of god… We’ll probably always disagree on that, but that’s OK given that we’re so in sync on the rest of it…

              I do suggest that you really re-assess the list of your enemies who are now in your “ministry”… Democrats, socialist, Muslims, (or atheists) because islam is indeed EVERYONE’S enemy, and I personally do not believe that we can fully eliminate the threat of islam without eliminating ALL muslims… Of course, I’m not going to win many friends by saying that either, but it is what I believe…

              But I think you were WAY off base when you said:

              Right now, though, I would rather focus my attention on encouraging individual lives than trying to get people elected who probably are actually hostile to my core beliefs anyway.

              Because I’m pretty sure that few if any of the candidates that the republicans will get behind in the next two critical elections, will really be hostile to your core beliefs .. And we really can’t afford to lose help from people like you right now… so please give THAT some thought as well…

              Peace !

  33. Kelly Staples permalink
    October 24, 2009 3:28 pm

    Swemson, your point is well taken. However, “faith” is still a fundamental litmus test for many on the right. Indulge them and their fairy tales as long as they’re correct on the other issues of the day. They are just too important a block of voters to alienate. Go Sarah!

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 9:12 pm

      Kelly;

      I don’t argue your point….. I just think that we’re in such deep trouble right now, that there’s no way any of them are going to sit home this time and NOT rush to the polling place to vote a virtually straight republican ticket in the next two elections…

      I hope I’m not wrong…

    • swemson permalink
      October 25, 2009 1:23 pm

      Kelly:

      Please note what I just said in one of my newer posts:

      I’m not even criticizing the concept of “faith”… I have complete faith that the US Marine Corps will continue to protect and defend our country right down to the last man…

      The difference is that I don’t KNOW for a FACT that that will happen….

  34. Jenn permalink
    October 24, 2009 9:10 pm

    Atheists and heterophobes – the pride you have in your unbelief is really quite funny because you (Swemson) say that other people are the morons. That is the epitomy of blindness. Unbelief in God comes from one thing. Sin. So one might ask, “What is your sin that it separates you from God?”

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 9:17 pm

      It’s simple Jenn…

      The one sin that I commit every day that I KNOW you’ll never forgive me for is rational thinking…

      And BTW: Thanks for helping me prove my theory…

      I couldn’t have done it without all of your fatuous and sanctimonious nonsense…

  35. Jenn permalink
    October 24, 2009 9:25 pm

    It’s no use reasoning with you for you are sanctimonious and foolish. Get over yourself.

    • swemson permalink
      October 24, 2009 10:43 pm

      Jenn;

      If you had half a brain it would die of loneliness….

      Oh… and BTW… I forgot to thank you for pointing out to everyone that I’m also gay….

      I’m sure you won’t be surprised to know that I also stalk maternity wards to swipe babies to eat !

  36. swemson permalink
    October 24, 2009 10:45 pm

    Thanks everyone…

    I’m going to spend the rest of the weekend trying to figure out how to use some of your jewels in a comedy routine…

  37. October 25, 2009 5:31 am

    Dear swemson;

    For the sake of argument, can we agree on one thing?

    There are conservative, democrats, republicans and independents in our country. There are also liberal democrats, republicans and independents.

    My opinion on vs your opinion.

    The left did attack Sarah for her political record and/or lack thereof, they did attack her for the way she communicated and/or lack thereof, they mocked her, her baby, children, husband, her clothing, (perhaps even her dog, can’t remember there were so many attacks!) Unrelentingly, they did attack her on her views of war and lack of experience ie “can see Russia from Alaska” they did attack her on her views of the economy and even sent a small army of lawyers to Alaska to discredit her with false allegations of fraud/corruption, whatever!

    Hollywood, politicians, liberals, peta, pro-choice, pink ladies, green ladies, elitist, socialites, mainstream media (msm), and whomever I may have left out, attacked her.

    Even some in her own party attacked her, which infuriated most conservatives, especially, we women, which is one (key word ONE) of the reasons we are fed up with the Republican Party.

    Sarah is not perfect, I’m not perfect, No one is perfect swemson, not even you.

    They attacked Sarah’s character.

    They abhorred the very essence of her character, her being, what she represents, who she represents, some of which is, a sincere, warm, truth emulating, pioneer spirited, woman, mother, wife, daughter, God fearing, gun toting, lipstick on a pig, eat what you kill, soccer playing, breast feeding, MOM.

    To many of us, she was our hope to restore, some semblance of America, as she once was known for. Hope, Freedom, Life, Liberty, Happiness

    That’s what they feared. Call it irritation, but I call it “fear” of what she represented, America, the land of the free, the home of the brave, the stars, the stripes, the blood that has been shed for freedom.

    They saw in Sarah the core traditional values of which they (liberals/atheist) have fought for decades to destroy and of which they hate. That pioneer spirit that made our nation so great, that compelled others from around the world, to flock here. Probably your ancestors as well, swemson.

    Sarah is the epitome of the founding mothers. Just as we have our founding fathers (“behind every great man is a great woman”) who created the “Declaration of Independence” so that we had a chance to survive as a new nation, under God.

    Sarah Palin loves her country. What’s wrong with that?

    She also loves God. And therein lies the truth, which the liberals, disdain.

    That’s what this is really all about.

    “Atheism is NOT an ideology”

    It’s a religion:

    “Atheism is religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being,” the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said.

    “The Supreme Court has said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described “secular humanism” as a religion.”

    For decades, Christians have been attacked by radical, agnostic, atheist, anti God, anti Christ, movements who have just about succeeded in removing the name of God from everything in our country.

    I remember when alot of this “anti God” movement started. Hollywood was all to eager to accomodate the movement. Parents upset by what was being pushed on television were told by liberals, if you don’t like it, change the chanel.

    It’s ok for libs to push your beliefs down or throats, “in your face” with your atheistic religous fervor.

    Christians/Conservatives have been the doormats for decades now, yet you have the nerve to try to turn it around with false allegations, we are the ones?!

    Hypocrite, is an understatement. Yes, I call your movement, hypocritical, double standard.

    Your disdain, hate for Christians is likened unto that of the Islamic/Muslim people, who “will not stop until Israel is wiped off the face of the earth.”

    Your argument that “in your face” Christians have tried to shove it down your throat is a lie.

    Liberals, atheist have not only shoved your liberal, atheist movement down our throats, you have nearly, successfully, destroyed our once great nation .

    Evidenced by an escalating tsunami of at best, moral decay, our great nation, is truly, a nation in distress.

    I can only hope, that the very God you say does not exist, will restore to his people, One nation, under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all and that liberals and those who hate America, instead of trying to change us, will migrate to the places the extol, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Russia.

    Now that my friend, is in your face.

    • Jonathan permalink
      October 25, 2009 9:19 am

      WOW! You pretty much covered the bases. Nice job.

    • swemson permalink
      October 25, 2009 2:15 pm

      Dear lady…

      I agree with everything you said about Sarah.. I’d love to have her as my president, and especially as a neighbor

      That’s not my point…

      All I’m trying to say is that if we can tone down the debate about gay marriage etc. just for the next few election cycles, that I believe that we’ll stand a better chance of getting our country back… I’m not out to fight with religion.. I’m trying to prepare us for the fight against the socialists & marxists who have taken over our country.

      I’m not criticizing the virtues you extol, I admire them… I merely want to prevent the far left hate & smear merchants from the media from getting more stuff that they can twist around & subvert to use as a weapon against us..

      That’s it… no kidding….

      But then you go off the rails about atheism…

      Your statement that atheism is a religion, is just about the dumbest thing ever said on Newsreel.. and by saying that, you’re doing the exact same thing to me that the far left did to Sarah…

      Atheists don’t believe in god… they don’t claim that it’s impossible for a god to exist, despite what some of clowns here keep saying, and we don’t all meet together in little buildings all around the world so that we can share jokes about those idiotic christians…

      How’s this… I hope I’m all wrong about god, and that your god does in fact save us from the huge threats we’re facing… & if that happens, we’ll definitely have to get together for a cup of tea, so you can catch me up on all that I’ve been missing..

      Until then, I’ll continue to support smart advertising and well planed and executed political strategies to defeat our domestic enemy… and SUPERIOR FIREPOWER to deal with the barbarians who are banging on our gate…

      I may be a rather old & decrepit Marine… but I haven’t forgotten how to fight for what I believe on.. a virtue that I KNOW that you support…

  38. October 25, 2009 5:45 am

    p.s. The family “jewels” of this comedy swemson, is you.

    • J Hampton permalink
      October 25, 2009 6:59 am

      Bluestarmom the P.S. was priceless.

      • October 25, 2009 7:02 am

        Why thank you J.

      • swemson permalink
        October 25, 2009 2:19 pm

        But J….

        Did you feel a shiver go down your leg ?

    • October 25, 2009 7:16 am

      Wow awsome couldn’t agree more!

  39. October 25, 2009 6:19 am

    Well this thread proves one thing, Sarah Palin creates a lot of emotion. So I may as well jump in to. The premise of the Swemson argument is incorrect, I believe. While Sarah P is self evidently a religious person, it is a gross exageration to imply she “threw her religious and moral beliefs” into people’s faces. The opposite is clearly true. That is, she was mocked for not aborting a down syndrome baby, for having the audacity to support her 18 year old daughter for getting pregnant out of wedlock, and for supporting the same views as all other candidates about gay marriage.

    But what explicit policies has she proposed that should scare all the religo-phobes that seem so prominant in public discourse these days? In her own state, she supported the rights of gays to in civil unions to receive the same benefits as married couples. While I have not heard her say it, I bet she would permit holiday symbols on state property—boy that sure would be scary! Oh yeah, and she opposes late term abortions—like 75% of all americans.

    She might have said aomething about “intelligent design”–another scary thought. We live in a Universe whose existence is so old that 99.99999% of all “time” occurred before man–“homo-sapien”–even appeared on this earth 100,000 years ago. We know so little about our origins—as the Hubble data gathering satellites continue to demonstrate—, a little humility about our roots seems reasonable to me. She is also for abstinence before marriage–at least for young people. Oooh, scary.

    But what laws has she proposed–except for late term abortions perhaps—that should get the relgio-phobes so incensed? Her dominant philosophy is to not have the government encourage social engineering experiments and moral indoctrination in schools. Swemson has it quite backwards.

    • swemson permalink
      October 25, 2009 2:38 pm

      Michael;

      You missed something here…

      I NEVER said that she “threw her religious and moral beliefs” into people’s faces…

      I agree 199% with you when you say:

      The opposite is clearly true. That is, she was mocked for not aborting a down syndrome baby, etc…

      So for the benefit of the lovely lady who joined this thread a day late, and all of those others who already despise my guts… Let me ONCE AGAIN make my point.

      I NEVER said ONE WORD against any of Sarah’s principals….

      ALL I’m saying is that the media used her religious and moral beliefs as a weapon to use against her, because they knew it would excite the far left secular loons..>/b> You know who I mean ? I’m talking about the lowlifes who are currently trying to brainwash young children with their disgusting marxist ideology… (Have you seen the video on Glenn Beck’s show ?)

      It’s the non-believers in the FAR LEFT that you SHOULD be worried about… NOT people like me…

      All I’m trying to do is win the next few elections so that we can continue to PROTECT & DEFEND YOUR freedoms & liberties, and that certainly includes your unalienable right to think & pray the way you wish…

      Am I getting through to ANYBODY yet ?????

      • swemson permalink
        October 26, 2009 3:50 pm

        ATTENTION EVERYONE !

        I screwed up and misspoke above, for which I humbly apologize

        After David S started this blog, I forgot my actual wordS in the original comment I made on a different blog with which he started this one.

        Apparently I DID indeed say that Sarah threw her religion in their face…

        It was an error to say that for which I can only offer one explanation…..

        By comparison to the total amount of of commentary coming from MOST religious candidates, much of which is pure BS just like the rest of the lies they spout to get elected, Sarah talked about it quite a bit…

        I was WRONG to characterize it as throwing her religion in their face..

        What actually happened, was that the far left MSM smear merchants, who were searching for anything they could find that they could use to help them go after EVERY person associated with the McCain campaign, hit paydirt as soon as she revealed the fact that she had a downs syndrome baby who she brought to term because she didn’t believe in abortion At THAT point, they had ALL the ammo they needed in order to attack her faith with their venom and hate in full view for everyone to see.

        When asked about it she correctly told the truth about her principles and her beliefs, for which I admire her greatly… It was the right thing to do, and it couldn’t possibly have done her any meaningful further harm, because the cat was already out of the bag…

        So the bottom line is that I did misspeak which I regret and sincerely apologize for….

        Many of you already know that when I get on a roll about something I’m truly PASSIONATE about, I say it like it is, and sometimes do regrettably go over the top with my comments…

        I just hope that the majority of the Rational members of this blog understand that the TRUE enemy I’m trying to battle here is the Obama administration, and all of the lowlifes like, Reid, Pelosi & Murtha, and NOT the millions of fine christians who share my desire to TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY !!!

        Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa !

        • Jonathan permalink
          October 26, 2009 4:37 pm

          I think anyone can make an honest mistake. I respect this apology.

          • swemson permalink
            October 26, 2009 4:50 pm

            Well, ISN’T that sweet of you !

  40. October 25, 2009 6:29 am

    I have just invited my patriot friends from twitter to join in for some “fresh” perspective.

    • swemson permalink
      October 25, 2009 2:42 pm

      Come on… the more the merrier.

      You’re all welcome to laugh at the evil atheist, since I obviously frighten and intimidate you so much…

      Ever wonder why that is btw ?

  41. Jenn permalink
    October 25, 2009 7:05 am

    Swemson,
    When a person cannot use reason and logic in a philosophic debate, but rather resorts to ad hominem attacks against the messenger, it clearly demonstrates that they have no clue how to answer a reasonable comment. You really have nothing of intelligent substance to say. Therefore, your only response is to call other people morons, half-wits, use cuss words and rely on anti-religious bigotry making ignorant ridiculous untrue statements which you have never bothered to verify…yet you spout them out as if they were fact. That is ignorance par excellence.

    That this blog holds you up for the admiration of all in giving you the Comment of the Day and tolerates your nasty responses makes me wonder about the sincereity of David Horowitz and the others in saying that their blog represents philosophical debate. If so, debating PZ Myers was on equal footing with this. Don’t let that go to your smug brain. PZ Myers is as low and common as they get. His ignorance and bigotry leave no room for reasonable debate….just like you.

    • October 25, 2009 7:15 am

      “That this blog holds you up for the admiration of all in giving you the Comment of the Day and tolerates your nasty responses makes me wonder about the sincereity of David Horowitz and the others in saying that their blog represents philosophical debate.”

      Swemson does sometimes go over the line and I have been known to delete his comments on occasion. As stated in our commenting guidelines, if a particular comment you feel is in violation then please email it to me and I’ll consider it for deletion.

      Likewise, if there is a particular comment you think is worthy of being highlighted as a comment of the day, then you can email that to me as well.

      But please don’t attack NewsReal and David Horowitz because you don’t like Swemson.

      • swemson permalink
        October 25, 2009 3:18 pm

        David…

        I’m sorry to say that SOME of that anger & hatred will never die away…

        And that doesn’t bother me at all….

        My only hope is that my theory gets considered objectively by those on Newsreel who are NOT religious zealots like some of the ones we have here…

  42. theblanque permalink
    October 25, 2009 8:39 am

    Swemson’s problem is the same problem that afflicts so many of the New Atheists: the sin of Vanity.

    The Vanity of Ayn Rand

    • swemson permalink
      October 25, 2009 2:48 pm

      The only people who hate Ayn Rand, are the leftists because she stands for freedom, liberty AND responsibility for one’s actions… And fanatical religious extremists, who are unable to understand her philosophy, because her atheism makes them hate her so much…..

      You don’t know how much you’re missing..

      • theblanque permalink
        October 26, 2009 12:44 am

        Oh, I understand her philosophy quite well, thank you very much.

        I just don’t like what it leads to–and neither would you, if you truly understood it.

        • swemson permalink
          October 26, 2009 2:56 pm

          Boy are you ever a pompous POS…

          You’re the one who hasn’t got a clue about her philosophy…

          I bought a used hardcover copy of Atlas from a used book rack for 50 cents in 1961, when I was only 15…
          Most people started with The Fountainhead.

          It opened my eyes so, that I joined the Nathaniel Brandon Institute, paid my tuition myself, & took all the classes, and I was even fortunate enough to have several personal conversations with her myself…

          What did you do, read the Cliff Notes ?

          Now are you going to ask me to “PROVE THAT” to you as well…

  43. MaryAnn permalink
    October 25, 2009 8:43 am

    Some of Swemsons comments have been a tad over the top, but some have also been interesting. He is simply angry and defensive about religion.
    This discussion has been lively and fun to read. Thanks, David.

    • October 25, 2009 9:19 am

      You’re welcome MaryAnn.

    • swemson permalink
      October 25, 2009 3:13 pm

      MaryAnn;

      You’re mistaken when you say I’m angry and defensive about religion… I couldn’t care less about what others choose to believe…

      No… what you see in me as my hate & insecurity about religion…….. is just MY ENORMOUS AND JUSTIFIED REAL ANGER AT THE VILE MARXISTS WHO JUST TOOK OVER OUR COUNTRY….

      I’m TRULY sorry if my passion about the subject has offended the many rational and reasonable religious people like you… but my anger over the LIARS and THUGS who are trying to DESTROY America right now runs SO DEEP right now, that I think the worst of them should ALL be tried for treason to our country and sentenced to spend the rest of their miserable lives in a small cell….

      And believe it or not, I look forward to hearing the church bells ringing ALL over our great nation, in celebration of our deliverance from what just may be the biggest danger our country has ever faced…

      Here’s to Freedom, liberty and Peace for all !

  44. Michaelle Maloney permalink
    October 25, 2009 10:44 am

    Do the left not have a religious view? How about them not throwing their secular humanism religion in our face. Let them stop doing this for awhile.

  45. Michaelle Maloney permalink
    October 25, 2009 10:47 am

    I picked McCain because of Palin only.

  46. Michaelle Maloney permalink
    October 25, 2009 10:54 am

    2bluestarmom-

    It couldn’t have been said any better! I applaud you!

  47. Michaelle Maloney permalink
    October 25, 2009 10:59 am

    Obama may seem like the antichrist-but there is no proof of this. Its only speculation. Not every christian thinks he is the antichrist.

    • swemson permalink
      October 25, 2009 3:23 pm

      You’re probably right about that Michaelle

      But I consider those of them who DO understand how very EVIL he actually is, to be my allies in the fight to rid the would of him and of ALL people like him…. !

  48. MaryAnn permalink
    October 25, 2009 3:39 pm

    I’m not understanding something, Swemson. If your angry about the vile Marxists who have taken over the country, why are you bashing Christians?

    • swemson permalink
      October 26, 2009 3:06 pm

      Dear MaryAnn

      THAT’S PRECISELY WHAT I’VE BEEN TRYING TO TELL YOU… I HAVEN’T BEEN !

      A bunch of fundamental religious zealots, attack anyone or anything the minute the atheist comes up… started to attack me right away, based either on their blindness, ignorance or malicious intent, simply because I’m an atheist.

      If you’ll just re-read my original comment at the top… AND my elaboration on those words which is the 2nd post in this blog… I believe you’ll understand that….

      Thanks for making such a reasonable and rational comment…

  49. Michael Reed permalink
    October 25, 2009 9:15 pm

    Hi, I know I’m way late on this discussion, but I just have to comment. What’s so disturbing about that “boutique sect favoured by Mitt”? Mormons love America. Why is that disturbing? On a related topic, not all Mormons automatically support Mormon candidates — as Chris Matthews once claimed back during the campaign. For the record, I’m a Mormon, but Mitt was a little too slick for my tastes and Harry Reid is just plain loony. (He also misspells his last name.) The candidate I was most excited about was Palin. Any gal who can field dress a moose has got my attention. (By the by, I have no idea what her religion is, and don’t much care.)

    • swemson permalink
      October 26, 2009 3:11 pm

      Michael writes:

      The candidate I was most excited about was Palin. Any gal who can field dress a moose has got my attention.

      I agree 100%.. and I’ll bet she won’t hesitate for a second to use her shotguns or rifles, the first time Obama’s storm troopers from the ATF, come to try to take her guns away….

      I absolutely LOVE her !

  50. Gareth permalink
    October 27, 2009 9:12 am

    Hey, I can’t keep up. Are we crowning Swemson in this thread or do we want his head on a pike? I forget. 😉

  51. swemson permalink
    October 28, 2009 1:26 am

    Gareth;

    You ask a good question…

    In attempting to discuss an idea, I would have preferred that people speak objectively about the idea itself, and many as seen above have…

    I think the problem comes from the fact that religion stirs up such enormous passion in people, that they occasionally lose sight of the idea, and focus on the messenger. As an open and acknowledged atheist, I stir up some pretty deep hatred, in certain people with small minds… mainly, IMHO, because when an atheist starts to talk intelligently about any subject, the religious zealots are intimidated by his erudition, and go on the attack at the person for being an atheist rather than anything that he says…

    In this recent brawl, some of the real zealots gave us a peek behind their masks at what really makes them tick… One of the worst of the lot, Jonathan, showed us his real motives, in the following line from one of his posts…..

    I shall use your encouragement to bolster my mission of calling out atheists for what they truly are: shills of the Marxists.

    They may hate me, but I don’t hate them..I feel sorry for them sometimes, but until they start trying to legislate their moral and religious ideas, they’re basically harmless children.. sot of like the hare krishnas dancing around in the airports all the time…. they tend to get lost in the scenery…

    I guess we just have to be tolerant of the children… 🙂

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