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Muslims Score a Major Victory

November 8, 2009


In 2003, the Union of the Muslims of Italy (UOMII), led by a radical convert to Islam named Adel Smith, brought a court action to have the crucifix removed from all public schools in that predominantly Catholic country. Calling the crucifix a “small body on two wooden sticks,” and “a miniature cadaver,” Smith and UOMII lobbied hard for their removal. Also on their agenda was the removal of an “offensive” 15th century Giovanni di Modena fresco in the Bologna cathedral and the deletion of Dante’s Divine Comedy from the school syllabus. Smith said both showed the prophet Mohammed cast into hell and were blasphemous against Islam.

The local Italian Court ruled in favor of the Smith and the Muslims. The schools appealed.

The matter was taken up by the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France (along with a similar action by a different plaintiff), and in a stunning decision, which has gone almost entirely unreported by most major news outlets and cable programs (with the exception of a small, peripheral mention on Fox News) in this country, that Court also ruled last week that displaying crucifixes in the Italian schools violated Europe’s principle of “secular education,” and “might be intimidating for children from other faiths.”

The presence of the crucifix could be … disturbing for pupils who practiced other religions or were atheists, particularly if they belonged to religious minorities. The compulsory display of a symbol of a given confession in premises used by the public authorities… restricted the right of parents to educate their children in conformity with their convictions.

The ruling has provoked outrage from all levels of Italian society, being nearly unanimously condemned by Christians, greens, conservatives, and even communists, who called the ruling “absurd.”

Mariastella Gelmini, a member of the government of conservative Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, argued that:

No one, and certainly not an ideological European court, will succeed in erasing our identity.

The head of the main opposition leftist Democratic Party, Pierluigi Bersani, commented that the ruling lacked common sense.

I think a longstanding tradition like the crucifix can’t be offensive to anyone.

Foreign minister Franco Frattini, speaking during a visit to Morocco, said it was an attack on Italy’s Christian identity and that the government would appeal the decision.

At a time when we’re trying to bring religions closer together, this is a blow to Christianity.

Those sentiments aside, it may already be too late for Italy.

Although generations of Italian children have grown up studying in classrooms displaying a crucifix, Italy has been transformed of late with the arrival of some 4.5 million refugees and asylum seekers (about 8% of the entire population), a huge percentage of which are Muslims. The influx has led to deep-seated tensions with Muslim immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East (who tend to resist assimilation and are becoming more vocal and radicalized as their numbers grow) despite efforts by the Italian government to accommodate them (as evidenced by the building the Grand Mosque in Rome, the largest Mosque in Europe).

To add insult to injury, the European Court has also fined the Italian government the sum of five thousand Euros, for their role in:

Psychologically damaging students who were forced to learn in the midst of a crucifix.

The Islamization of Europe continues unabated.

  1. Colette permalink
    November 8, 2009 2:49 am

    Of course they want the cross down! So do many unbelievers around the world…

    It’s a sad reality to look around the world right now and see that most of the armed conflict that is going on right now comes from Muslim aggression and conquest of other people. That does not mean that war and terror are unique to them, but they are major instigators, and the rest of the world is waking up to the threat that they pose.

    The reason they don’t want to see the cross is because they deny the existence of the trinity, the existence of the Holy Spirit, and the existence in the deity of Christ. While the Koran says that the Bible is legitimate, except for the fact that Christians have corrupted it, they DO pick and choose the Scriptures that support their beliefs but DON’T look at the whole body of work. By doing so, they miss out on the grace of God, not only for salvation, but for every aspect of life.

    Muslims believe that Jesus did not die on the cross. This is considered a Christian perversion. They have twisted Jesus on the Cross, and teach that someone else was substituted on the cross and Allah took Jesus up into heaven, reserving Him for a future return to the earth for a final work. They call Jesus Isa. (As any believer knows, Jesus is the son of God, and did not need anyone to usher him into Heaven)

    According to their traditions, Isa will return before the judgment of Allah and fight Christians and Jews and convert the whole earth to Islam. This conversion to Islam is supposed to end all wars and bring peace to the earth. Isa will lead Muslims in the final jihad against Dajjal which, is their antichrist. Isa will, of course, win this battle against Dajjal and be the victor. He will then remain on the earth, marry, have children and live for another 19 years after his marriage and then pass away.
    It’s laughable that they teach Jesus will remain on earth, marry and have children and live for 19 years after his marriage..(another lie)
    It’s also sad that they believe this, teach their children this, and that so many nations are pandering to there web of lies…afraid to speak up … The truth is that each and everyone of us will have to choose sides, and if it be Allah or Jesus…you will have to choose…The Bible tells the end of the story-Jesus will win in the end. The earthly things that you see happening now are moving us closer to end times…This you can be sure! There jihad is all for nothing, and those that are fool-heartily to follow after their anti-Christ at Armageddon to take on the returning Christ…..THINK they are going to win the battle that we’re being drawn closer to each day…. They’ve been lied to. There will be peace, but they will not be around to enjoy it. Will you?

  2. Rich Waksman permalink
    November 8, 2009 4:23 am

    This ruling makes complete sense. Here in the U.S. we would not allow it. Separation of church and state is one of the most important principles in our culture and it is not that strong in mostly Christian Europe. Don’t compare this with other Muslim complaints you have. Make believe an atheist or a Jew brought this action. I would not want to attend a public school that had religious symbols all over it. Bravo to the court.

    • Brad Lytle permalink
      November 8, 2009 4:59 am

      Removing the cross, where it has been forever, is a statement that supports atheism. Atheisim believe in the “blank wall.”

    • oldwolves permalink
      November 8, 2009 5:40 am

      Actually it’s the opposite of ‘common’ sense.

      You bigots on the left forget that the first amendment in the bill of rights states, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech….” Buy why let a 250 year piece of paper make any difference.We’ll just pretend it means something else, like a spoiled child who doesn’t get their way.

      You elitist believe that freedom is no longer the freedom to speak or practice one’s religion,Oh lord no, but the freedom to not be offended by anyone else.

      Your a true believer in discrimination, because a ban on the discussion of God merely discriminates against those who believe in God in favor of those who do not! So it’s OK to discriminate against those you don’t like.People like you use the word “secular” to mask discrimination against religion.

      Your people use your definition of secularism to ban those who still believe in God from the public, leaving freedom of speech only to those who do not believe.

      So then it’s your bigotry and your discrimination and you elitism that doesn’t make sense!

      • pandamonk permalink
        November 23, 2009 2:59 am

        oddwolves – “because a ban on the discussion of God merely discriminates against those who believe in God in favor of those who do not!”

        “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. It’s not merely the discussion of God. It’s the government imposed privilege of Christianity in schools, etc. The religious are free to exercise their religion in any way they see fit, but not to impose their religion on others, which is what you are arguing for.

        • oldwolves permalink
          November 23, 2009 6:40 am

          “It’s the government imposed privilege of Christianity in schools”

          I’m trying to figure out what imposed privilege means. Is that sort of like ‘jumbo shrimp’? Back in the good old days when people sent their kids to school it was a rare privilege to do so. Most schools were private and run by Christian charities , priests and nuns. Even most colleges were catholic made and run. The nutty thing was back then the religion that founded this nation and has kept it running was based on catholicism. The government imposed nothing. Nobody had to go to school. You went voluntarily to better educate yourself and you sent your kids in hope of them bettering themselves.

          This is still, for a little while, a predominantly Catholic country. It’s morals and values which have stemmed from the Jude0-Christian beliefs is what has made it the greatest country in the world. Don’t you think it’s strange that the further we stray from Christianity and it’s values, the faster this country falters and fails?

          Socialism and communism are the bastard religions of man. The celebration of mans failures over Christian values. The piece of paper you mentioned has been so badly manipulated by the left that George Orwell could use it now for ‘1984, Part deux’. By putting a cross in a classroom you may make a child think about something other than MTV or becoming an Obamazombie.

          Perhaps they’ll think about something important. Like living a moral life. But then thats the whole idea isn’t it? Remove any moral beliefs so they’ll be easier to control by the government. And that damn cross is interfering with the government mind manipulation machine. We can’t have an opinion other than the government! People would then think for themselves and have a choice. God forbid!

    • David permalink
      November 8, 2009 7:41 am

      I guess you place Atheists and Jews in the same sentence because you know that they are the same?

      • F. Swemson permalink
        November 14, 2009 1:37 pm

        Now that just might be the most blatant example of both ignorance and bigotry I’ve ever heard!

  3. georg von starkermann permalink
    November 8, 2009 5:04 am

    The USA thinks it is a secular country, yet all over the USA one sees “In God We Trust”. It is on their money, in their Congress, and in every Government building. Let’s face it, we Europeans are petrified over the Moslem take over of Germany, and the rest of Europe. These Moslems want our largess and freedoms, yet want to destroy our culture and sense of belonging to the greater world around us.

    We are deeply worried over this as you in the USA should be. 9/11 was the first Moslem tragedy to strike the USA, Dr. Hasan’s massacre was the second tragedy to strike the USA. Hasan was not a tormented soul, nor was he crazy. His attack was a planned attack on innocent soldiers and civilians who were basically unarmed. Hasan’s pattern fits in so well when compared to attacks on Israelis by these same terrorists, ot the attack on the Madrid train station a few years back.

    The USA should be afraid of what will happen next, as the Europeans are afraid. The time to take action is getting closer and closer.

    • Joseph White permalink
      November 14, 2009 1:49 pm

      The USA thinks it is a secular country, yet all over the USA one sees “In God We Trust”. It is on their money, in their Congress, and in every Government building.

      Technically, the USA is a secular country. It’s a republic run by a secular government. It’s just a small irony that some of those government officials are religious people.

      Unlike Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, where the religious leaders run the government, after a fashion, the USA is not that way. Our leader (As much as we don’t like him right now,) isn’t a priest or a Mullah, instead, he’s an individual man, who might or might not believe in God. If this country were really a theocracy, Gays would be stoned in the streets, there would be no abortions, and God’s word would the rule of law. However, since we are a Republic and a secular government, the Gay movement moves in the light of day, there are abortions on demand, and even Atheists and agnostics get to run for public office.

  4. Michael van der Galien permalink
    November 8, 2009 5:27 am

    Dan Collins has a good reaction.

    I agree that it’s completely insane to let these people have their way. Ludicrous – it’s the umptiest time that a court forces a government to do the politically correct thing. European courts are taking over by PC-leftists.

  5. John Davidson permalink
    November 8, 2009 5:48 am

    Just watching those commies gloating on television last night while destroying the constitutions on the eve of Veteran’s day was sickening.

  6. adheeb permalink
    November 8, 2009 6:03 am

    The Christian church is often criticized because of the Crusades. Few are aware that the Crusades were triggered by 300 years of Islamic aggression against Christian states. Those states now are Muslims lands. Traditionally, Christians have been tooooo slow to defend themselves against this false religious / political system. Islam is an aggressor against Christianity and always has been.

    • Ann permalink
      November 8, 2009 3:34 pm

      No argument there, fact, but most people just stumble about when this argument raises its head as they do not undersand that the Crusades were started by the then Pope to stop the onward march of islam into Europe. Have we learned nothing. Will they succeed this time?

      • Joseph White permalink
        November 8, 2009 4:26 pm

        I have no doubt that they will try, and if they do succeed, it’s because so few citizens actually read history. They might watch it on the history channel, but it’s not the same as reading the books written by people who lived it, or have studied it for a lifetime.
        If it’s not that, then it’s people trying to rewrite history to make it say what they want it to say.

        I substituted for a history teacher last week and their topic was the fall of the Roman Empire. The students thought it was as stupid thing to study, since it had no bearing on what happens today. Imagine their surprise when I took the historical points and pointed out how they mirror today.

        The things that made the Roman Empire fall:

        1) Oppressive goverment.
        2) Outrageous Taxation
        3) Slavery
        4) Citizens not wanting to join the legions anymore
        5) People voting themselves pay raises out of the treasury
        6) Barbarians serving in the army and losing sight of romes history.

        I took them step by step through just the last six months.
        1) Oppressive government – The administration taking over the banks, the car dealers, and wanting the healthcare system. I pointed out that if the government passed the bill of their choice, we’d all be slaves to DC.

        2) I pointed out that DC lived only to tax workers to death and wanted everyone on the welfare rolls as a slave. The house bill for healthcare points that out when it mandates that everyone *Must* have health insurance, or they will be fined 500 dollars or a year in jail, with the upper level being 250000 dollars or five years in jail. That’s slavery and oppression of my freedom.

        3) Slavery – DC would love it if everyone in the country had to depend upon them for the basics of life: Food, water, shelter, healthcare, cars, etc.

        4) The military has been so denigrated that people don’t sign up like our fathers and grandfathers did. This causes the military to have to hire people like Hasan, even though he betrayed his country by posting on Jihadists websites.

        5) Face it, since welfare people get to vote, they get to elect people who will promise them more money out of the treasury. The cycle perpetuates itself.

        6) We have to hire people from mexico, the middle east, ex-soviet nations, just because we don’t want to defend ourselves. That leads to them not appreciating our country, and allows them to sneak in 5th columnists.

        The only way to wake up everyone at once is to return to the original constitution, plus amendments, and start kicking people off of the welfare roles, and making them work. But to do that, we’d have to have an education system that allows debate and exploration, and let’s the students pick their own futures.

        It’s hard work, but we need to do it, before we become Europe.

        • November 8, 2009 6:13 pm

          Amen Joseph. Well said. And I’ve thought about that too. People that don’t contribute anything to society but get “taken care of” by the government, then vote and vote for the same corrupt people who will continue to pay them for their support. When will it end….or scarier, WILL it end????

      • F. Swemson permalink
        November 9, 2009 1:47 pm

        Adheeb says:

        “Islam is an aggressor against Christianity and always has been.”

        You make it sound like islam is only out to get christianity…

        Don’t you know that islam is out to get everyone who’s not a muslim ?

  7. Chuckie2u permalink
    November 8, 2009 6:33 am

    Get used to the fact politicians of the U.S. of A. are supportive of the U.N. which is loaded with Islamic followers. Our own leadership is supporting the influx of Islam into our Colleges and Universities and their right to convert our population. The Washington Elite appear to see a willing ideology of submission to help remove any influence of Christianity from the public square.
    The aggression of Islam will fill the void created by Europe and the U.S. renouncing Christianity. When Islam enforces their Spiritual Laws on the Lefties watch them scream.

  8. Brian Westley permalink
    November 8, 2009 6:35 am

    People who think state schools ought to push the local majority’s religion have no respect for genuine religious freedom.

    • John Davidson permalink
      November 8, 2009 7:11 am

      What is alarming is the fact that the push against the right to pray in any fashion is being denied our children by the STATE!

      • Brian Westley permalink
        November 8, 2009 8:27 am

        “What is alarming is the fact that the push against the right to pray in any fashion is being denied our children by the STATE!”

        What are you referring to? The recent ECHR ruling wasn’t about prayer.

    • November 8, 2009 6:20 pm

      I am SOOOO sick of hearing about separation of church and state. It has now become not just separation of church and state but taking separation from God. The founding fathers did not want ONE demomination to become the oficial state church like in England with the Church of England and Catholisim in Italy. They NEVER invisioned God being taken out of the equation all together. The founding fathers, being from different denominations, even bickered over which minister would open in prayer but never in their wildest dreams, would they have wanted God not even mentioned. It’s even sadder when “Christians” advocate separation of church and state. Sadly, people just don’t know our history. It might do well for everyone to start reading up on it. You might actually learn a thing or two…or three.

      • Joseph White permalink
        November 14, 2009 1:23 pm

        The first amendment was never about the seperation of church and state, instead, it was about the fact that the state couldn’t form a religion around the government. This was prompted the church of England, who said that to be a Brit, you had to worship according to this, or Spain, who’s official religion was Catholicism.
        In fact he first amendment is what would prevent Islam from becoming the official religion of America and would prevent it from being the defacto government.

        The first amendment states that the government can not abridge free speech, can not shut down the press, and can not say this religion is the official religion of America. It also give us the ability to speak out against the government and demand that the government get the hell out of our business.

        If you’ve ever read the letters of the founding fathers, they were always saying that anyone who represents the people should be a believer of God and should agree to uphold the constitution.

        • F. Swemson permalink
          November 14, 2009 4:49 pm


          I sort of agree with your argument that: The first amendment was never about the separation of church and state, instead, it was about the fact that the state couldn’t form a religion around the government.. But I don’t think the two theories are mutually exclusive.

          As to its ability to stop Islam from becoming our official religion, I doubt that the Constitution will have much if any effect on anything by the time that Islam becomes the dominant religion in this country. Hell, a huge portion of it has recently been shredded right in front of our own eyes.

          I suspect however, that we’re not 100% in sync with all aspects of our interpretation of the wording of the entire amendment, and indeed the entire Constitution itself.

          The way I interpret the “free speech” portion of the 1st Amendment, is that it guarantees the people the right to free speech, but doesn’t grant the government the right to say anything that favors any given group of citizens.

          Individuals of course have every right to put the cross or the words “in god we trust” on their homes, vehicles, or on a sign that they might carry around in public places (streets or parks etc.)

          Nobody denies the tremendous influence that christianity had on our founding fathers, however, just to make the point, I wonder how different our country would be, (if at all) if judaism was their prevalent religion rather than christianity. I may be off in some of the minor details here, but to my knowledge, all of the moral and ethical principals of christianity and judaism are the same. After all, they both derive from the same “old testament”. Of course islam does as well, but islam was already totally off the deep end by the time the quran was written.

          Now the language “in god we trust” applies equally to pretty much all religions, but I’m pretty sure that replacing the cross in school rooms around the country with say the jewish star for example, would rile up a good many christians. I even suspect that putting it up next to the cross would anger many, but that leads us down a treacherous road, because if we put both symbols up, then all of the other religious groups would feel left out.

          Since our country is NOT a pure (majority rules) democracy but rather a republic based on laws, it seems to me that all religious symbolism on any “government” owned buildings, clearly represents the views of only the “majority” of Americans, and while it bothers me not at all, I do think that using such symbology on public buildings and public schools, is, at least technically speaking, at odds with the idea that the state can’t form a religion around the government. I see that language as meaning that the state must remain NEUTRAL on the subject of religion. No objective person would deny how much religion has meant to our country, nor I suspect, would anyone disagree with the fact that issues like this raise extremely passionate reactions in many, many people. And to me, that’s precisely the point.

          I simply do not believe that you, or any religious Americans for that matter, would be any less pious, moral, ethical or just plain decent people than you are if those symbols weren’t there, and I also think that most religious people believe that their faith and their belief in god, is in their hearts, and not something that hangs on a wall.

  9. Phillip Ley permalink
    November 8, 2009 7:19 am

    How does a crucifix on the wall make anyone uncomfortable? Did anyone tell the Muslim students in the room they had to pray to Jesus? Does anyone believe that if the Muslims were in the majority, the Christian students in the school wouldn’t be threatened, and made to kneel and bow to Mecca five times a day? Thank you for correctly portraying the Crusades for what they were-a response to Muslim aggression in Europe, and pray that Christians have the backbone and will to DO IT AGAIN……if occurrences like the Fort Hood massacre do not wake you up, then nothing will. Leftists will probably soon start clamoring for gun control as a response to that act of terrorism, and gun control is exactly what the Muslims and the “one-worlders” want. They can’t really exert full control or get their worldwide caliphate until they have disarmed us. Never! It’s time for a new Crusade. Purge them from our military, purge them from our country. Now. The idiot who believes that our Republic was founded on secular principles is exactly wrong – it was founded on rights known to be God-given but with respect for those of other faiths and THEIR God-given right to practice their faiths without restriction. That is what Islam does not do-respect other faiths. Islam is the aggressor. Islam is the usurper, and I anxiously await the day that we may challenge them on the battlefield, because that is where we are headed, if we have any courage remaining. We ARE at war with Islam, and our political correctness will allow Islam, if left unchecked, to infiltrate our society as a “fifth column” and weaken us to the point of collapse and servitude.

    • William James Ward permalink
      November 8, 2009 8:36 am

      I am getting older by the day and still cling to my religion and
      guns. The day will come when men like myself, living in quiet obscurity
      will be pushed to a line most veterans know and what will happen
      is going to mean the end of the left, verily, the end of foreign
      religious terrorism and most assuridly the end of the traitors in
      our own government. I want peace but realize that
      we are not being alowed that, we are being challenged by Islam,
      the left who is using Islam to weaken us and they have enabled
      fifth columnists to be elected into our government. What vision our
      enemies have is as best I can tell is to live like insects.
      Like cancer in the body we must do something about it or it spreads
      and kills. The question is do we do nothing and decompose or do we
      fight and if fight, who, where, what and how. Army trained I have
      retained the basics, and starting, it is necessary to pick the
      targets……be ready……..Know the leaders are there and
      fear nothing when called for the fight to end what seems to
      be endless crap. Oh I am just so sick of it all.

    • jacob mandelblum permalink
      November 9, 2009 5:37 am

      Fine comment, deserving congratulations to the writer..

      I`m Jewish and by GOD that 100 crucifixes in a classroom walls and another one on top of my hospital bed, if ever, never bothered me…

      Of course, to stupid ignorant fanatics to whom even a pork chop thrown in their midst at one of their demonstrations (as proven by the Spanish Foreign Legion in Spanish Morocco), has the same effect as a live hand grenade, just the sight of a crucifix is anathema…

      I guess the recent speech of AUSTRALIA`s Prime Minister regarding Muslims mostly should
      be sent to our stupid politicians to see what are they going to do about the problem now
      reminding us of its existence, as the first 3 or 4 ones had been swept under the rug and now
      we have the ANNOITED ONE claiming it was an isolated “incident” that “shouldn`t be blown out of proportion”, parroted by Ms. NAPOLITANO…

      Since to be “politically correct” we have to wait for a significant “smoking gun” , same as the
      grabass being played with the Ayatollahs, then it is a shame that this Jihadist wasn`t able to get hosl instead of a machine gun and four magazines, being able to kill at least 1oo and wound as many. That would be a “smoking gun” big enough to force the MESSIAH close his trap and stop his diminshing the crime as an isolated incident…
      I wonder any of the victims would have been a blood relative of any of the high ranking DEMOCRAPS, they would react as their speakers did.

      I guess what is in order is to purge Muslims, even those born in the USA from the military and every single echelon of the administration…

      To keep on burying our heads innthe sand may lead to desisasters worse than 9/11

  10. Greg Jounson permalink
    November 8, 2009 7:44 am

    Europe is getting what they deserve. Content to live in the sewer while Turks cleaned their bloody toilets. You’ve looked down your nose at Ami’s and brit’s while claiming some sick deviant superiority. Somehow being a supporter of everything deviant has come home to rest with Europe’s children.
    So sad. I love Munich, Berlin and my months spend in Wurzburg and Garmisch.
    If jews had taken Hitler serious and now if Germans, Brits and Danes had read and believed the queeran, none of this would have happened.
    Europe is drowning in the toilet the skeifo muslims have flushed. So soon, when your sons are being raped and your daughters privates burned off you will wish for that American constitution and it’s precious right to defend oneself. islam is a disease of the soul and spirit and like HIV you have let it in and honored the lifestyle. The more islam takes over the more sick and deviant ways they will learn to debase and torture you. They will take that Guantanamo base and laugh at you while ripping your backside open.
    I lived in a muslim country and the debauchery has no limits on children, women and animals. May the God you do not believe in ,ake your demise as quick and painless as possible because it is not “if”, but when.

  11. macko permalink
    November 8, 2009 8:07 am

    They could have just as easily allowed the display of the crescent along with the star of david. Atheists have symbols but why should they display anything if they don’t believe in anything and therefore shouldn’t care about any of this. Making christians take down their symbol is a political victory for islam.

  12. macko permalink
    November 8, 2009 8:10 am

    Moving to the west and then conplaining about western religon is like buying a house next to the airport and then having it shut down because of the noise.

  13. Joseph White permalink
    November 8, 2009 8:22 am

    How about we go one step further, and deny entry into our countries to these barbarians.

    They don’t want to assimilate, they want to keep their culture and force us to embrace it.

    They are children walking around in daddy’s shoes and throw temper tantrums that get people killed.

    When they are offended, rather than discussing it, they call for deaths.

    These are not the signs of a mature civilization, they are the works of barbarians, and it’s time that we tell them to grow up or get out.

    Italy, where our civilization began is under attack now and if it falls, we all do.
    I think it’s time to call Islam what it really is, it’s a death cult full of facists that want to rule the world.

    • F. Swemson permalink
      November 14, 2009 4:15 pm

      Yeah… that pretty much sums it up…

      Well said Joe !

  14. Brian Westley permalink
    November 8, 2009 8:32 am

    The last few commenters don’t appear to realize that:

    1) this ECHR ruling was the result of a complaint brought by an atheist mother, an Italian national originally from Finland.
    2) the law mandating crucifixes in state schools in Italy was signed in the 1920s by Benito Mussolini.

  15. Phillip Ley permalink
    November 8, 2009 9:19 am

    How does the crucifix hurt the atheist? How? How does having a prayer in school hurt the atheist? If the atheist firmly believes in the absence of God, he or she should not feel offended at all. But, if he or she has doubts, aha, there lies the problem! Having a prayer of ANY kind in a state school is not promotion of a religion, it is an allowance of its free exercise. A crescent would be fine as well. How about a Star of David? So maybe Mussolini did one thing right, after all, before they hung him. We spend too much time in this country worrying about political correctness, and offending small groups of people. You want a Muslim prayer by a Muslim student in my child’s private school? Enroll them, pay the tuition, and request it. They will be allowed to pray. As a taxpayer in the public school district in which I live, if my child enrolls and wants to pray, she damn well can. Those in the public schools clamoring for their rights who decry my position had better be thankful that I support their school financially (and unwillingly, through legislative theft) and do not add to their service burden by placing my child in a private school to get her away from the thought control and indoctrination imposed by the goverment and the teachers’ unions.

  16. SanePerson permalink
    November 8, 2009 9:23 am

    This is simply an Islamic move to replace the crucifix with sharia law. They have no intention of secularizing anything!

  17. Deanna Christian permalink
    November 8, 2009 9:28 am

    Is is far past time to choose sides in this battle for the souls of humanity. As the old hymn says, “Stand Up! Stand up for Jesus!” If Italy and Europe fall to the Islamists, we will be next.

  18. Fred Alexander permalink
    November 8, 2009 10:00 am

    Immigrant camel jockeys have caused nothing but problems in the countries they assimilated to. It is time to return them to their homelands before they become the majority through mass offspring.

    • William James Ward permalink
      November 8, 2009 11:25 am

      They are not here as immigrants and not here to assimilate, they
      are colonists creating Islamic zones of power throughout the world.
      Send them back yes, and before they attack overtly, but make them
      pay their own way to what they call home.

  19. Brian Westley permalink
    November 8, 2009 10:38 am

    “How does the crucifix hurt the atheist? How?”

    The state is imposing religion on children whose parents might not be Christians. The government should no more put up crucifixes than it should put up a star & crescent in every room, or a sign stating “gods are myths.”

    Now, if you’d rather not have, say, Islamic symbols like a star & crescent in every classroom (and no other religious symbols), it would be smart to establish that the government ought not to have that power, even if it currently wants to promote a religion you prefer.

    • Phillip Ley permalink
      November 8, 2009 1:33 pm

      I would say that the time to choose is coming. You may not be allowed the time, if you are a secularist, to decide. It’s not a matter of the government imposing anything, no more than a road sign imposes anything on me as I drive by it. I believe what I believe. It remains true that an Islamic government WOULD impose their religion on you, would not allow the symbol of another religion displayed. Christians have simply been too tolerant, in Europe and the US, and political correctness can run amok. How does the Christian hurt the atheist, by praying for him? The Muslim would see the atheist convert or die. THAT, sir, is the difference.

      • Brian Westley permalink
        November 14, 2009 1:02 pm

        Sorry, I’m not going to accept small infringements of religious rights by painting Islam as an even more threatening boogeyman. My original point still stands; Christians who support state-imposed religious symbols are hurting atheists by imposing religion. You can’t whitewash that away by saying other, even worse infringements are possible. That does nothing to justify lesser infringements.

        • Joseph White permalink
          November 14, 2009 1:29 pm

          How does the fact that a cross hangs on a wall hurt an atheist? Or do you feel that we are hanging you on that wall? Could it be a guilty conscience that bothers you?

          The crucifix in all actuality, isn’t a holy symbol at all. The crucifix, or cross was the symbol of Roman justice, because they hung criminals upon the cross and watched them die.

          The early holy symbol for the church was the never ending circle, that had not begining and no end. It is just the catholics that brought the cross into being the most powerful symbol of christianity.

          Another symbol was the coptic fish. Symbols are just symbols, and if you are easily offended by symbols, then maybe you should lock yourself up in a dark room and (I was going to say pray,) but then Atheist’s don’t pray. Atheists don’t believe in anything greater than themselves, unless it’s a lawyer, or an oppressive government.

          • F. Swemson permalink
            November 14, 2009 4:58 pm


            I think that Brian is clearly off the deep end when he says that “state-imposed religious symbols are hurting atheists” and that he in fact by saying that is hurting atheists themselves.

            Atheists don’t believe in god period. They don’t deny the fact that they’re in the minority, and they’re certainly not hurt any more by seeing these symbol than they are by driving past a church.

            From his avatar, I suspect that he might be the boogeyman himself.

          • Brian Westley permalink
            November 14, 2009 6:24 pm

            “How does the fact that a cross hangs on a wall hurt an atheist?”

            In the same way that a sign stating “gods are myths” hanging in a state school would hurt a theist. In both cases, the government is pushing a particular religious view on children which the parents might not agree.

            “Atheists don’t believe in god period. They don’t deny the fact that they’re in the minority, and they’re certainly not hurt any more by seeing these symbol than they are by driving past a church.”

            They ARE hurt when the government abuses its power to push religion on the children of atheist parents.

            • F. Swemson permalink
              November 14, 2009 7:34 pm

              We live in a world totally immersed in religion and religious issues.. hell, the entire human race is living under the very real threat that a mob of 7th century barbarians want’s to kill us all… When you consider all that we have to put up with, someone hanging a cross on a wall has the same affect on us that CO2 has on climate change, virtually NONE whatsoever.

              While technically speaking you do have a case against those symbols being there, I think you’re vastly overstating their significance. Returning to the basic story here, we’re talking about something that happened in Italy, and I think that most would agree that the degree to which catholicism dominates Italy, does in fact make it almost like a state endorsed religion, and I doubt that anyone would have any problems with the cross hanging in Catholic school classrooms, so what’s really the big deal here?

              To my knowledge, there aren’t many crosses hanging on the wall in American public school classrooms.

              I also think that the VAST majority of atheists came to believe the way they do, well after they were young children. When I was 13, I went through the standard jewish bar-mitzvah ritual, reluctantly of course, because to me, being out on the streets with my buds on nice weekend days playing ball, etc was a much more pleasant way to have fun than working in a classroom studying stuff that I knew back then would never be either useful or important to me in later life.

              While I’m sure there are exceptions of course, I never met an atheist who was “indictrinated” with atheistic views as a young child… so how could they be hurt by a cross in a classroom?

              • Brian Westley permalink
                November 15, 2009 1:59 pm

                “While technically speaking you do have a case against those symbols being there,”

                Oh, ‘technically’ people have religious rights, eh?

                “I think you’re vastly overstating their significance.”

                So there would be no problem removing them, right? If they’re truly insignificant, nobody would care.

                “Returning to the basic story here, we’re talking about something that happened in Italy, and I think that most would agree that the degree to which catholicism dominates Italy, does in fact make it almost like a state endorsed religion, and I doubt that anyone would have any problems with the cross hanging in Catholic school classrooms, so what’s really the big deal here?”

                Because they AREN’T Catholic schools; they are STATE schools, which, by their own constitution, need to supply a secular education, not a Catholic education. And since when is it OK for the majority religion to take control of state schools? Will you still agree to this if Muslims are the majority?

                “To my knowledge, there aren’t many crosses hanging on the wall in American public school classrooms.”

                Of course not. That’s unconstitutional.

                • F. Swemson permalink
                  November 15, 2009 2:54 pm

                  And where pray tell did I say they were catholic schools ?

                  • Brian Westley permalink
                    November 15, 2009 5:04 pm

                    You didn’t. But I didn’t say you said they were Catholic schools, either.

            • William James Ward permalink
              November 14, 2009 8:05 pm

              My amazement is in understanding that a symbol of what the vast majority
              believe in can be made out to be offensive to someone that does not
              even believe in the existance of the symbolic meaning of the item.
              Is compromise possible here, let the vast majority have the 8 or so
              inches of wall for the cross and the atheist have the million or so
              inches of blank wall to express the absence of whatever it is they
              claim to be nonexistent, blank wall would then offend the majority
              who will in the interest of peace co-exist with mutual
              angst.The cross lovers will just have to accept their hurt at a
              vastly larger area of blank wall which could be construed as
              government abusing its power to push atheism.

              • F. Swemson permalink
                November 14, 2009 8:39 pm


                There are a few wing nuts at the outer edges of ever issue, but what they think really doesn’t matter. I fail to see where any significant number of people are offended by the cross.

                We’re not talking about the ways in which one religious group feels about the beliefs of another. What we’re doing is have a serious discussion of the government’s role in the issue.

                I’ve previously made the argument that under our constitution, government should remain neutral on the subject. do you think it’s proper for our government to give favorable treatment to any one religious group, no matter how big of a majority they happen to represent? If they did, wouldn’t that be the same as the government giving preferential treatment to one race over another?

                BTW: Your idea that atheists would consider a blank wall as being representative of their beliefs or lack of same, is just as absurd as your further words that imply that atheists claim that god in any form is nonexistent. With the exception of a few religious extremists who simply hate atheists because they don’t share their religious views, (you know, just like muslims do) atheists don’t say that god doesn’t exist. By definition, it’s impossible to prove a negative. Atheists simply say that that they’ve never seen any evidence to support the idea that a god figure does exist. How could one possibly prove that a supernatural being, who is by definition invisible, and unknowable, DOESN’T exist ?

                The issue isn’t if it offends anyone or not. The issue is whether or not the government should take a stand on the issue one way or the other.

                • William James Ward permalink
                  November 15, 2009 9:47 am

                  Of course a blank wall is absurd, get it, I think athiests are absurd.
                  I would refrain from speaking for all atheists, I have never met one
                  that did think God existed or would spend their time arguing the point.
                  Should the government take the side of one group over another in
                  matters of religion, no. Should the government take a stand, governmental positions come from differing problems. A cross on the
                  wall of government buildings may be a no for the government. It is
                  the governed who push for a position one way or the other in the
                  absence of a government position. I think the matter best not broached
                  as it is a waste of tax payer money. The article speaks to the Italian
                  problem of the crucifix on the wall of public schools, courts say take
                  them down. This is an attack on what is a cultural icon of the people
                  and here the court representing some government is making a choice
                  which one would hope be based in law. Italian law is not a common
                  knowledge venue for most of us. I do think the decision goes to far and
                  as the acculturation of accepting the cross is ingrained by generational
                  exposure, theirs is a real problem.Colonizers coming in want to change
                  you’re heritage and identity to weaken you by attacking you’re symbols.
                  Freedom to use the courts may be the problem but assimilation should
                  be a prerequisite of being accepted into another society. Muslims will
                  chip away endlessly until they get what they want, so it goes.

                  • F. Swemson permalink
                    November 15, 2009 10:05 am


                    In your first comment, you wrote:

                    “The cross lovers will just have to accept their hurt at a vastly larger area of blank wall which could be construed as
                    government abusing its power to push atheism.

                    Could be construed ? By whom ?

                    The government’s only agenda is to make sure that they stay in power.

                    And then in your second comment you wrote:

                    “Of course a blank wall is absurd, get it, I think athiests are absurd.”

                    You profess belief in an eternal, unknowable, omniscient and omnipotent invisible being, and you think that atheists are absurd? Why? Because they’re not delusional?

                    After which you claim that:

                    “I have never met one that did think God existed.”

                    Well duh……

                    What part of the word atheist don’t you understand?

  20. xyz permalink
    November 8, 2009 10:48 am

    This isn’t about the REMOVAL of religious symbols, but the REPLACEMENT of “ours” for “theirs” by THEM. That ?

  21. david price permalink
    November 8, 2009 12:17 pm

    Taking the crosses down will only cause the faith to grow. Persecution will unite and strengthen believers.

  22. November 8, 2009 12:20 pm

    I have not realized how far down the road to islamization Italy has travelled. Unfortunately this is the result of political correctness being the guideline used even by the courts. There are too many fuzzy minded academics who accpet this crap about the crucifix having an intimidating effect on schoo, children of other faits this is sheer nonsence. My concern is that if it continues this way the Muslims will take over all of Europe within a genertation.

    • F. Swemson permalink
      November 14, 2009 5:05 pm


      I’m afraid that muslims are already too far along in the process of taking over Europe already, and that if we don’t do something about it real soon, we’re not going to be far behind. Watch the following video, and tell me if disagree, or if you’re far more concerned about islam than you were before.

  23. Kettlebelly Baldwin permalink
    November 8, 2009 12:30 pm

    I think it’s admirable that Muslims are concerned about a country that has a monolithic religious structure, one that doesn’t allow other religions to have a voice, one that indoctrinate their young with only one religious view and is intolerant of all others.

    Personally I admire this sort of universal tolerance. I don’t get those who criticize the efforts of the UOMII. I mean, it’s not like they are hypocrites who don’t practice what they preach. It’s not like they’re not following the same rules that they advocate in Italy in their own countri…..

    Oh wait.


  24. peachey permalink
    November 8, 2009 1:05 pm

    Unfortunately the point missed by those in Europe is that Muslims do not assimilate. They invade and conquer by overwhelming numbers, demands and violence. Islam is at it’s true form in countries like Somalia,Saudia Arabia and Iran. Deadly to those that do not conform to Sharia laws. America has millions of Muslims within it’s borders. What percentage of these Mulims hold to the belief that all must submit to Sharia law or be killed? One percent? Ten percent? Fifty percent? The danger is already here and moving rapidly within American society and politics to transform our society slowly, by the constant drum beat of “anti-discrimination and anti-Islamic” laws enacted by the politically correct politicians that are accepting of the Progressive delusion of inclusiveness. Islam is exactly what it appears to be. A religion based in violence and intolerance of all that is not Islam. Very politically incorrect, but true.It is what it is.

  25. Monica permalink
    November 8, 2009 1:52 pm

    First the socialist destroy your culture and then they join forces with the Islamists and leftwing zealots to replace your culture with Wahhabi Islamic values using the “You have no human rights if you aren’t Muslim organizations”. Fake human rights is all the rage these days. The first step is for the people of the EU to admit your governments are selling you out for the Muslim vote, second get them out of office with your vote. Third start a very public compaign to send children to school adorned in multiple crucifixes, hang them off your windows doors, you car bumper, hang them in trees instead of surrendering your Christian/Catholic based culture celibrate it publicly and shut the cry baby Islamists and bigoted hateful leftard Atheist’s up. They always win because they are loud noisy and hateful bigots, shut them up with signs of Christianity and Catholicissm. Will they bleed from the eyes in rage, of course they will but they are perpetually offended anyway give them something to bleet about.

    Islam hasn’t evolved for the past 1400 years and it’s showing no signs of doing so in the future.

  26. peachey permalink
    November 8, 2009 4:00 pm

    Can someone explain why Muslims are exempt from the EU hate speech and incitment to violence laws? It is interesting to watch the overt accomodations to Islam. This insanity is growing in this country as evidenced by the attempt to blame society and some slight of equity that drove Hassan to murder innocent, unarmed Americans. Sometimes, evil is just plain old evil. Hassan would have never attacked those Americans if they had been armed and able to respond. Sometimes a coward is just a coward. A segment of American society have become the great defenders of the evil and corruption we see today throughout the world. Evil is perceived as good, and good is perceived as evil. I do not believe that Hassan is alone in his beliefs. While he may have acted alone, there are already those waiting in the wings to repeat other murderous acts for the sake of a destructive and evil ideology that is not compatible with American laws and precepts. The Progressives in our country refuse to accept the fact that they cannot change or control this ideology. Their delusion of a cohesive and functioning one-world government is just that a delusion, born from the ignorance of human needs and desires and corrupted by man’s age old desire to conquer and dominate.

    • F. Swemson permalink
      November 14, 2009 8:51 pm


      The reason why they’re exempt is because everyone in Europe is afraid of those animals, so they bend over backwards to accommodate their every whim…

      Witha few exceptions, the people running the governments of Europe are spineless cowards, who’ve gotten so used to American protecting their sorry asses that they have no idea how to defend themselves any more.

  27. November 8, 2009 4:00 pm

    They think their rights are being trampled now, wait until the Lisbon Treaty takes full affect. These countries do not realize that they have agreed to be enslaved by the elitists of the world.

  28. November 8, 2009 9:26 pm

    Why not? Didn’t the Jesuits do this several years ago in their Georgetown University? Aren’t the Jesuits more catholic than the Pope?
    Any Western nation that goes for this crap deserves the consequences.

  29. alan permalink
    November 9, 2009 8:16 am

    So what doe it take to move non-muslims. We are in a war and only one side is fighting. How much longer can the world tolerate the Islamic invasion and not respond?

    • Joseph White permalink
      November 9, 2009 10:55 am

      I believe that a vast majority of the people are mad as hell, and aren’t going to take anymore. I think that they’ve flooded their congressman’s office with calls, faxes, newsletters, etc, and have done the town hall thing.
      I think the run-of-the-mill joe is pissed as hell, but it’s the federal boys that aren’t doing anything about it.

      What do you do when your elected official ignores you and takes payola from the muslim and lobbying groups? What do you do when they are afraid to tell Muslim’s no, because it would lose them votes, and probably get them killed?

      I’m all for re-opening the detainment camps and sticking muslim’s in them, until they switch religions, or we nuke Mecca, Medina, and let the Israeli’s tear down the al-asqa mosque.

      For people who have studied history, the crusades were started to protect Bethlehem and the holy land from the Muslim’s. If they hadn’t been such barbarians then, nobody would have cared, and it’s just sad to note that they haven’t matured any. In fact, they’ve regressed to the 6th century way of doing things.

      I say it’s time to stop trying to win hearts and minds, and simply kick the crap out of them and make them cry “Uncle” Then, and only then, will they come around to the modern times.

      It may take the states forming militias and walking the streets with guns, to make the DC crowd pay attention. It may take a million armed people standing in middle of the national mall to wake Obama up.

      • F. Swemson permalink
        November 14, 2009 8:59 pm


        While they do respect superior force, it doesn’t make them change their ways… They just cringe in their mud huts for a few years with their goats, while they build themselves up into thinking that they’re strong and powerful once again by abusing their women until they’ve mustered up the resources and strength to try again… I don’t think that they’ll ever come around.

        They’re ignorant barbaric bullies, and the only way they’ll become part of modern society is if they stop indoctrinating their young with the their dreadful cult of death and hate. They’re still a “tribal” people. They have no comprehension of what the modern world even means.

  30. November 9, 2009 2:53 pm

    Actually, in some ways this is heartening.

    The cross should be offensive. I believe the Apostle Paul said much the same thing (Gal. 5:11). That the EU goes along with this opinion just show they are on the side of those who are perishing..

    So what happens if the schools refuse to take down the crosses, refuse to pay the fines, and just refuse…period? They going to stop funding to every single school in Italy? They going to send in troops?

    Europe is demographically dying anyway. At least go out with some of your testosterone still in your body.

  31. oldwolves permalink
    November 15, 2009 11:03 am

    The absurdness of it all. We must tolerate their intolerable beliefs that your beliefs are intolerable to them. That their belief in unbelief trumps your belief in being able to believe.

    We don’t have to worry about Submission to Islam. We all ready are bowing to the inevitable surrender of our belief, all for the sake of tolerance. What fools these mortals believe! Lets get fitted for our shackles before the line gets too long.


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