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From the Pen of David Horowitz: November 20, 2009

November 20, 2009

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As a result of my experience, I developed, in age, an aversion to romantic myths. Instead I was seized with a hunger for information — for the facts that would reveal to me the truth about the years I was a member of a heroic vanguard. The fall of the Communist empire and the opening of its secrets have fed this passion. Preserved in the decoded Venona communications between Soviet agents in America and their contacts in the Kremlin is the record of the truths we had denied, and whose denial made our romance possible. The truths revealed that we were just what our enemies had always said we were. There were spies among us, and cold-blooded agents for a tainted cause. And all of us, it could no longer be denied, had treason in our hearts in the name of a future that would never come.

In the battle of good and evil that formed the core of our romantic myth, we had enlisted — New and Old left alike — on the wrong side of the historical conflict. We had set out as the proud harbingers of a progressive future. But what we had actually created were realities far worse than those we were seeking to escape. The enemies we scorned — patriots defending America — turned out to be the protectors of what was decent and pragmatically good, who had saved us from being consumed by our crimes.

It became clear to me that the world was not going to be changed into anything very different or better from what it had been. On this earth there would be no kingdom of freedom where swords would be turned into plowshares and lions would lay down with lambs. It should have been obvious when I began. Many things change, but people fundamentally do not. Otherwise how could Shakespeare, or writers more ancient, capture in their creations a reality that we recognize, and that still moves us today?

Hating Whitey

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43 Comments
  1. George Pappas permalink
    November 20, 2009 3:25 am

    There’s no drunk like a reformed drunk. In my twenties and thirties, while in graduate school, I was a ranting marxist as well.

  2. November 20, 2009 5:26 am

    The human condition, most of us need to experience first the wrong to know the right.
    Within us all lives a dueling nature, a knowledge of what is good and a temptation to do what is wrong, it will always be so until we die, the most important thing will be the choices we make.

  3. Jennifer Lewis permalink
    November 20, 2009 6:37 am

    It’s all about education as children. Also, most kids couldn’t care less about this stuff. It’s all about them & being popular. As a high school & college student I knew what I was being taught seemed wrong but didn’t know why. As a sophmore in college I was blessed with a summer Heritage Foundation Internship. Suddenly what I was hearing made sense. The next year my radical leftist philosophy professor latched onto me and we would debate endlessly in classroom and out. He would seek out my opinion. I know I suceeded in making him question his long held beliefs.

    We need to bring my Heritage Intern experience to the students, since they obviously cannot all go to Heritage.

    • politicalmoxie permalink
      November 20, 2009 8:05 am

      @ Jennifer Lewis

      For you it was Heritage, for me it was my Grandmother. Never has it been more clear to me how blessed I was to have her as a mentor. I shall remain eternally grateful to her.
      I knew who David Horowitz was before most of you reading this blog. I knew who he was as a Marxist and as a reformed Marxist.
      THANK YOU, Grandmother!

      • F. Swemson permalink
        November 20, 2009 9:47 am

        When I was 15, I bought a used hardcover copy of Atlas Shrugged for 50 cents from a used book rack in a candy store.

        As I hadn’t been brainwashed by liberal elitist teachers, the book just made perfect sense to me.

        I attended Ms. Rand’s classes at NBI the following year, and ever since then, I’ve been watching the world go in the exact same direction that she predicted it would.

    • jason gray permalink
      November 20, 2009 3:09 pm

      when i was about 22, 1993, i was going to radio school in minneapolis and my roommate insisted i turn on the AM radio (what? there still was an AM band) and listen to this talk radio guy named Rush Limbaugh. I didn’t get it. when i got into radio i spent a year running the Rush Limbaugh program overnites. I, then, got it! just like jennifer, the philosophy suddenly made sense. it was as if someone was articulating a truth that i knew was right but had never had the words for.

  4. Marylou permalink
    November 20, 2009 9:08 am

    One thing that interests me about this website is that it seems run by people who say they don’t believe in God yet are so very morally upright, a true contradiction in my mind. This phenom remains a curiosity to me.

    • John Davidson permalink
      November 20, 2009 9:41 am

      It matters not who they portend to be, but how they treat each other which is important. Notice how the hand is extended towards you and what it beholds.

    • F. Swemson permalink
      November 20, 2009 10:20 am

      Marylou;

      We’ve had this discussion before as I suspect you remember.

      Ayn Rand said:

      “Contradictions don’t exist. If you find yourself faced with one, check your premises, and you’ll find that one of them is always wrong.”

      Virtually every one of the moral and ethical principles that you got from your religion, I arrived at through reason and logic. The reason why your moral and ethical principles have survived for so long, is because they’re rational and logical. There’s no contradictions here. We both arrive at the same conclusion, even though we take different routes to get there.

      Here’s a simplified way to understand where the difference lies:

      As little kids, our moms told us not to touch the stove because it was hot.

      Even though we didn’t really understand the concept of a hot stove being dangerous to us, we took our moms ON FAITH, some for a short time, others for longer… until we touched the stove, after which we KNEW what the concept of a hot stove being dangerous to us meant. After that, we NEVER tried to touch a hot stove again…

      Which of those two types of “knowing” do you suppose is stronger and more dependable?

      When we learn something through experience, from actual evidence, we logically put things together in our minds, and we then KNOW them to be true.

      In the law, it’s the difference between anecdotal and empirical evidence. Which do you suppose carries more weight in a court of law ?

      • Marylou permalink
        November 23, 2009 11:20 pm

        With all due respect, you’ve had this conversation before.

    • Ez4moi permalink
      November 20, 2009 10:21 am

      Marylou, I am a Christian. In fact when I was in the First Grade, my Dad was on a rare business trip to St. Louis. I was up late, probably 10:30 pm. I was watching a science fiction show on our Dumont Television when my Mom came in and asked me if I’d like to accept Jesus into my heart. I said, “Sure.””

      We went into the kitchen and sat at the table. We talked for a half hour. She explained that Jesus had died as a sacrifice for me in God’s plan. Jesus had taken on Himself all the sins of the world including my own. If I accepted this gift and asked Jesus to come into my heart, then, I’d be saved from having to pay the price of sin on Judgement Day. I’d go to Heaven.

      I prayed a very simple prayer, “God, I am sorry for my sins. I want Jesus to come into my heart.” Then, I went back to watch TV a little longer before bed.

      But I was changed forever. For about 3 weeks, I walked about 18 inches off the ground. I had to look down to make sure my shoes were touching the floor. This sensation was palpable. Everything I prayed for happened. I suppose I should have thought to pray for world peace. Ever since, I have tried to live a good moral life. I can count on both hands the number of lies I have told in my life. I try not to miss the mark (sin).

      All of this, Marylou, is to let you know from where I am coming.

      David Horowitz is a jew. I believe some of the staff on FrontPageMag are jewish. He realizes that people like me are cultural, religious, and political allies. He has a code of moral behavior based upon the judeo and probaby christian ethics. If he is atheist, he is still guided by the judeo moral philosophy.

      What he understands that other jews do not seem to comprehend is this: The difference between he and I is that I actually believe everything in the Torah and Pentatuch. The suffering Messiah prophesied by Isiah for whom the ancient jews looked came in the form of Jesus, a jew. But a conquering Messiah was also prophesied. In fact ancient jewish rabbis wrestled with if there would be two Messiahs or one. In one of their scriptures, the suffering and conquering Messiah are mentioned in the same sentence. Jesus life embodied the fulfillment of prophecy after prophecy. Now, I anticipate the return of the conquering Messiah.

      Horowitz is moral by earthly standards. He knows that devout fundamentalists like me respect him, Judeaism, and Israel. In fact and I hope any liberal jew reading this far will open his mind a moment longer. God Almighty, your God, the Creator commands me to love Israel and be its’ friend. Every chruch I have been in preaches this.

      Those of you who are still fighting the battle essentially with the historic wrongs of the Roman Catholic Church toward jews and include fundamentalist christians, are dare I say it, boneheads.

      What do you not understand about protestants like me fleeing the same persecution, establishing this country, and accepting jews from the begining?

      Furthermore, heaven forbid a fundamentalist christian be elected President. For he both loves and respects you and your religious heritage and is commanded to be a friend to Israel!

      • F. Swemson permalink
        November 20, 2009 11:20 am

        EZ:

        I find it interesting that Christian, God, Jesus, Creator & Roman Catholic Church etc, are all capitalized, and yet the object of your little sermon above, the “jew” conspicuously is NOT.

        Care to explain that ?

        I also find it interesting that you speak of loving & respecting Jews, as something that your god COMMANDS you to do… Why is that ?

        Could it possibly be that you still hate “the jews” for killing Christ, but that you pay them lip service, because your god COMMANDS you to do so….. ?

        • Ez4moi permalink
          November 21, 2009 11:30 am

          I appologize for the oversight. It was unintentional. The Jews are God’s chosen people through which He is revealed.

          Your interest is appreciated. Fundamentalist Christians believe the scriptures that those who are friends of Israel are blessed and those who are not are cursed.

          Lastly, you speculate that I hate the Jews for killing Christ. The Jews did not kill Christ. The Romans did. For the record, I do not hate Italians either.

          In summary, all your comments tell readers far more about you than you imagine. Paranoia must be very disturbing.

          • F. Swemson permalink
            November 21, 2009 11:45 am

            EZ;

            Had you done it once, I’d never have even noticed it, and would consider it be a typo of which there were a few. It caught my attention only because you did it 6 times, and the 7th time, you misspelled Judaism 🙂

            I’ve always wondered where the story of the Jews killing Christ came from.. perhaps you can shed some light on it for me…

            There are many anti-semites in the Christian world, and yet THEY consider Christ, who was of course Jewish, to be the son of God… This has never made any sense to me…

            Historically, almost all new thinkers, who stand up and question the accepted precepts of the day, whether they been in religion or science (Galileo) , are reviled and persecuted..

            The other thing that puzzles me, is hearing people like you say that:

            The Jews are God’s chosen people through which He is revealed.

            If so, why did Christianity break off from Judaism ?

            • Ez4moi permalink
              November 21, 2009 4:28 pm

              Thanks for the smiley face. I think we are getting somewhere here. From where the story of Jews killing Christ comes, I do not know. It is not true. I appreciate your interest and the nature of your questions. Here are my other answers:

              1. There are many anti-semites in the Christian world, and yet THEY consider Christ, who was of course Jewish, to be the son of God… This has never made any sense to me…? Answer: First, I almost never use the term Christ. 99% of the time I speak of Jesus. The lamb of God had to be of the line of David per the prophesy. Therefore, not only was Jesus a Jew, He had to be. Fundamentalist Christians believe that the acceptance of Jesus grafts us into the line of David. We are coinheritors of all the promises made by God to Abraham. Therefore, Swemson, it is not logical for a Christian to be anti-semitic. What you should be asking yourself is are these real Christians who are anti-semitic? For example, years ago a destructive wave swept through mainstream Christian denominations. Now, they hardly believe much of that in the Bible. They are controlled by the Left. They are anti-Israel. Christians like me left those denominations in droves. Now they wither. I submit that anyone who is anti-semitic is either not a Christian, personally biased with nothing to do with religion, or ignorant.

              Were I you, I’d be more concerned with a certain religion where the saying is first the Saturday people and then the Sunday people.

              2. Historically, almost all new thinkers, who stand up and question the accepted precepts of the day, whether they been in religion or science (Galileo) , are reviled and persecuted..

              Answer: There is a question in this somewhere. I think this is it. You question the advancement of science in the face of religion. Let’s look at Galileo’s example. He proved the earth is not the center of the universe. This was in the face of the Catholic Church of Rome’s dogma of the day that the earth was the center. The Bible makes no such statement. I submit to you that Galileo would be reviled today by a lot of scientists. He went blind in one eye looking at the sun in order to count sun spots. Begining with him hundreds of years ago the data on sun spots, which includes the Maunder Minimum, demonstrates a close correlation of sun spots and the temperature on the earth regardless of the amount of CO2.

              3. Puzzled by: “hearing people like you say that: The Jews are God’s chosen people through which He is revealed. If so, why did Christianity break off from Judaism ?”

              Answer: First, I appreciate the nature and tone of your question. You really want to know. Therefore, you desever the long answer.

              About 2,600 years ago rabbis were confronted with a religious mystery in the Hebrew scriptures. Two Messiahs are described, suffering and conquering. I can imagine the raging debate. Was there to be one or possibly two Messiahs for which to look? In the Hebrew text of Isaiah, there is a detailed description of the suffering Messiah. Intermixed with this description is the prophesied Jewish rejection of Him. 600 years later Jesus birth and life fulfilled Hebrew prophecy after prophecy. Jesus, the disciples, and all the first Christians were Jews. Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedren, came to Jesus by night to ask him what one needed to do to be saved. If you recall, Jewish throngs welcomed Jesus to Jerusalem. He was very popular. He rode a donkey rather than a horse to symbolize that he was arriving humbly not as a conquerer. Most likely the religious leaders saw Jesus as a threat to their power and prestige. They rejected Jesus. God had provided the fulfillment of Hebrew theology.

              Jesus and the Jewish Christians back in the day did not reject Judaism. Official Judaism in the form of the High Priest Caiaphas rejected Him just as Isaiah knew.

              Next, God began the Church Age in order to continue His plan for mankind. This is the parenthesis between the coming of the suffering Messiah and that of the Conquering Messiah or the Second Coming of Jesus. At some point not vey far in the future, God is going to return the mantle to the Jews to be His light to the world in place of Christians.

              Indeed, you asked about me stating that the Church Age will end. In 1947 Israel became a state again. Scriptures prophesy that the generation that sees the re-establishment of Israel as a nation will see the return of the Messiah.

              Perhaps this helps you understand. You should simply read the Judaic and Christian scriptures to use your free will to decide for your self.

              Now as I have a pretty good sense of humor, I’m not bent out of shape in any way over your statement involving “you people”. (laughing as I write this) You do understand that if you were addressing a black person, homosexual, or any other politically correct protected group you’d be pilloried. But it is ok to refer that way to people who actually believe the religion upon what most of the Western World is based.

              All the best to you.

              • F. Swemson permalink
                November 22, 2009 1:50 am

                Thanks for the serious and sincere explanation. It’s been far too many years since my first course in comparative religions, and frankly I didn’t pay very close attention to it back then. I was more interested in Aristotle.

                Referring to “you people” as meaning all “religious people”, I still have this enormous disconnect, based on the way that you take these stories and legends passed down over thousands of years as if they’re actually real and factual events rather than just folk tales or legends (I’m looking for a term that isn’t insulting here, I hope that’s OK)…

                I speak frequently about the two ways of achieving knowledge, through faith or through reason, and while I can appreciate the affection that people feel for these ancient stories and traditions, especially since they teach such excellent lessons, I find it difficult to understand why it’s so hard to accept new explanations that are based on fact. The Church now admits that the earth isn’t the center of the universe. Likewise, historically, the church has modified its position on many issues over the ages, as the old explanations for things were supplanted by more modern scientific thought. And each time this happens, nobody seems to ask the obvious question, why, if church dogma was wrong about this or that, should we continue to believe any of the other explanations for things that it teaches us.

                Nobody wants to argue precepts like thou shalt not steal, or murder etc… but it’s a huge jump from there to concepts like original sin, which man must seek the help of the clergy to overcome… It’s too much of a self fulfilling prophesy, that seems so obviously designed to put power in the hands of the clergy, rather than to encourage free and independent thought in man. In fact to me, religion has never been about mankind… It’s always been about the clergy, and their need to maintain power over mankind.

                More and more people are beginning to question these ancient tales every year, to the point where the entire Judeo Christian tradition is literally dying out at a rapid pace in Europe. America’s rather insular past, has kept the tradition more alive here than elsewhere, but then I always come back to the basic issue of the day, that another one of the “desert dogmas” Islam, seems to never cease trying to force itself on the rest of the world. Having evolved from the same “old testament” writings, to me it points out the utter absurdity of all religious thought.

                Descartes said “I think, therefore I am”

                Ayn Rand said “I am, therefore I’ll think”

                When you truly understand the nature of man’s volitional consciousness, you have to come to the conclusion that concepts of religion and free will are completely incompatible.

                When you said: ” Biblically speaking, however, the Church Age is rapidly approaching its’ end.” you threw me off, and I interpreted it as meaning that the age of religion having such an enormous influence on humanity, is finally coming to an end.

                Since I have no difficulty at all arriving at the same moral and ethical precepts that Christians hold so dear, I frankly welcome this change, as all I can see that religion does is separate people off into different groups, all of which are at odds with each other because of the differences between their myths, which serve no other purpose than to create disharmony, distrust and hatred amongst the different peoples of the earth. I see the ancient clergy as being all about power over men, just like the political leaders of today. More obviously however, I see the net sum of the effects that religion has over mankind as being the greatest single cause of murder, misery and mayhem, conducted on such a massive scale, throughout recorded history, that we’re now living in a world where Islamic fundamentalists are trying to obtain nuclear weapons so they can vaporize anyone who doesn’t bow down to their version of the God myth. Where and when does it end ?

                At this point, I see the entire thing as being so barbarous and insane, that I long for the day that mankind grows up and realizes that we’re simply here… It doesn’t matter why, and we’re wasting our precious and limited time here on earth speculating about all these supernatural concepts, fairy tales and superstitions that have been handed down over the ages. The one clear and obvious purpose of our lives is to be happy and prosperous so we can leave our children a better world with more and greater opportunities. Ayn Rand put it quite succinctly when one of the characters in her books said that the purpose of our lives is our own happiness and that we should achieve it neither by sacrificing ourselves to others, nor others to ourselves. It’s a philosophy of individualism. And when you think about it you will realize that virtually all of the greatest accomplishments of man, are the product of the curiosity of the individual human mind, and it’s desire to solve problems and seek it’s own truth or beauty. Nothing is created by committee. All of the great art, music and literature, all of the great inventions and scientific breakthroughs, all come from the mind of one individual. That to me is the highest accomplishment to which we can aspire, to leave the earth richer and more beautiful for our having been here, and in order to achieve that lofty goal we have to embrace reality, and learn to understand out world, how things work, and how nature can be shaped to suit our needs.

                A great concerto, or a work of art or of literature, to me, is a greater accomplishment than all the cathedrals ever created. Rather than spending our time trying to figure out where we come from, I think we’d all be better off if we concentrated on using what we have to make a better world for future generations…

                • Ez4moi permalink
                  November 29, 2009 10:29 pm

                  F. Swemson, I am a hard person to insult. Don’t worry about it. It was my pleasure to answer some questions you have long had. If you should have more, please express them.

                  My youngest brother died on November 20. I’d been anticipating the call just not at 1:30 am that day. He was a gentle person who had some trouble navigating the difficulties in life. Fortunately for him, he had a family and lots of friends who assisted him from time to time. Therefore, I’ve been very busy for about a week with everything. Otherwise, I’d have written a reply to you sooner. He liked to debate topics. He’d enjoy reading the things we are discussing.

                  He’d be amused at your disconnect over the question of how can anyone intelligent believe that which educated and enlightened people commonly understand to be mythical in nature. He knew roughly my intelligence quotient and the universities where I was formally educated.

                  You speak of arriving at commonly held knowledge through faith or reason. To me these are not mutually exclusive. I arrived at my core beliefs through faith, reason, and experience. That most people do not believe as do I neither surprises nor distrubs me. It is anticipated.

                  There is a disconnect which I previously explained but apparently not very well as you have again returned to it. How can church leaders teach things that are later proven by science to be incorrect and yet Christians still remain believers? You continue to link the pronouncements of a church leader with what is in the Bible. This is in fact why I am one of this country’s original rebels. One side of my family was persecuted as protestants in an inquisition as heretics because we knew the leaders of the Church of Rome were doing and saying things that had no basis biblically. This is why my family is here. People like me are the direct reason you may believe as you wish and worship or not as you please. We established this country with this precept to avoid a state religion.

                  Further, you have a misunderstanding about the Church. The Church is those people filled with the Holy Spirit through their acceptance of Jesus as their Savior. It is not cathedrals or clergical hierarchies. It is certainly not a specific denomination.

                  Finally, you speak of facts. If you imagine fundamentalists cherish and hold dear an assorted collection of largely unrelated “folk tales and legends” as the basis of a blind faith, you have a basic misunderstanding of us. From cover to cover, the Bible is filled with prophecies which have come true not only back in the day but recently as well. You are unfamiliar with this record because you’ve not got a world view which equips you to considered it.

                  I suggest you simply read and decide for yourself. It is completely an individual decision.

                  Lastly, I believe it was G. K. Chesterton who said anyone who does not believe in Jesus will believe in anything. F. Swemson, I’ve heard it all.

                  By the way, every time you say Goodbye to anyone you are actually saying God be with ye from the old English.

                  Therefore, goodbye for now.

                  Respectfully,

                  Ez4moi

                  • Marylou permalink
                    November 29, 2009 11:45 pm

                    Dear EZ4 moi,

                    Now that I have a minute or two, I am thoroughly enjoying your response to F. Swemson. Well said!

                    and, Tarlton. This shows what you do not know. Some Christians and some Christian churches are very much alive with the spirit of a loving God! and amazing adventures in the spiritual realm. All are invited.

                    Marylou

                  • F. Swemson permalink
                    November 30, 2009 12:56 am

                    EZ;

                    Thanks for that reply, and I’m sorry to hear about your brother…

                    I’m reminded of one of Spencer Tracy’s lines in the movie “Inherit the Wind” when he was playing the attorney defending the high school teacher for teaching Darwin, in the Scopes Monkey Trial of 1925…

                    He said” “The bible is a book, it’s a good book but it’s not the ONLY book”

                    I wholeheartedly agree that it’s a good book, indeed a great book, as it contains the accumulated learning and philosophy of wise men over hundreds if not thousands of years (forgive me if my time line is off).

                    That the moral and ethical principles taught in the bible are so in tune with the moral and ethical values of Ayn Rand, whom I consider to be the greatest philosopher of our age, is proof of that to me, and the fact that virtually all of my personal moral and ethical beliefs are identical to those of my two closest friends, one of whom is an orthodox Jew and the other of whom is a Christian evangelical, further indicate my respect for it.

                    What I don’t get is how you go from a great book to a “divine” book. I simply don’t understand the concept of a god, and I never have. I know full well the history of religious belief from the earliest records of mankind, and I see it as a logical progression of beliefs, from the earliest times, when man knew virtually nothing about his world and ascribed everything to the spirits or the gods, to the modern day in which less and less of the mysteries of the world are explained by god….

                    It’s also undeniable, how rapidly the percentage of people who hold such beliefs is shrinking. We see it less in America than we do in Europe, but regardless, the Pew research center’s most recent study about religion in America shows non believers in the range of 16%.

                    To me, I see this as a sign that mankind is finally growing up. Religion filled a much needed role for people further back in history, and I understand that it still does for many today. They don’t bother me, and I certainly don’t bother them or criticize them up to the point where they try to impose their beliefs on me by force of law, and I’ve seen much of that in my lifetime. My earliest recollection of this was when I was a teenager, visiting my grandparents in the Boston area. I was an avid golfer back then, and once walked quite a distance one Sunday morning to a driving range, only to find that it was closed, because the good people of Massachusetts had passed a law which virtually was telling me that I belonged in church at that time.

                    Then came 9/11, and that really changed me.

                    I had always looked at religious people as being basically good hearted people with good intentions who were basically harmless, but that day showed me the depths of evil to which man can be brought in the name of god…. At that point I lost all of my tolerance towards people who are constantly saying that god is the answer to everything.

                    I’m a former Marine, and after seeing my country attacked that day, my reaction to people saying that the only way we could defeat this evil was by turning back to OUR gods, was utter disbelief.. I basically lost all of my patience with those people at that time. Mind you, I’m only talking of the extremists…

                    The truth was and remains very clear to me. We’re dealing with a bunch of 7th century savages who are completely controlled by evil men in the name of god, to the point where they will commit such unimaginable atrocities that it boggles the mind.

                    Now I certainly don’t equate Christians with radical Islam, but Christians did burn witches, and over history have killed a good many “heathens” in the name of god, so while they’re not the same, deep down, to me at least, the potential to become evil is there, because the intensity with which people cling to and protect their religious beliefs, simply knows no rational limits as far as I can see. I’ve actually heard people that they wouldn’t back any potential candidate to run against Obama in 2012 if he wasn’t a deeply religious individual.

                    ButI will go on record now, even at the risk of offending you, which I really don’t wish to do, by saying that anyone who thinks that we can deal with this threat from radical Islam by getting down on their knees is a naive fool. The only way to deal with animals like this is with massive and overwhelming force, and to take no prisoners. This isn’t a random event. These people have been committing violence against everyone who didn’t believe as they did for centuries, and I believe that we have every legal and moral right to literally wipe them off the face of the earth.

                    So here I sit today, watching my country being destroyed from within, by communists who are deliberately trying to tear our system of government and our economy down, and from without, by the threat of radical Islam, which I see as being far more dangerous than even the 3rd reich, and for which our commander in chief appears to have zero will to confront.

                    So that makes me both scared and pissed off, and I simply can’t be as tolerant to religious beliefs as I was before.

                    I’ve been viciously attacked by many self proclaimed Christians on NewsReal for saying things like this in the past, and I’ve been trying to tone it down as much as I can, but when I confront a thinking and honest person such as you, I feel that I have an obligation to tell you what I honestly believe…

                    So there it is…

                    I have a very simple view of government and public policy. I believe that everyone should be free to do whatever makes them happy as long as in doing so, they do not negatively impact on anyone else’s right to live their life their way, and enjoy the quiet comfort of their home and their community.

                    V/R

                    F.S.

                  • Ez4moi permalink
                    November 30, 2009 2:09 pm

                    Mary Lou, thanks. But things are starting to get circular. I may not be able to keep it up much longer.

                  • Ez4moi permalink
                    November 30, 2009 3:51 pm

                    F. Swemson, if you do not believe in the concept of God, you are an atheist. Please hear me out on this point. Christians make an error when debating non-Christians. The error is this: non-Christians want to challenge the Christian’s beliefs in various ways while not defending their own belief.

                    For example, people do not merely not believe in Jesus. They do always believe something. It may be ghosts, reincarnation, space aliens seeding the earth with people, meditation, New Agism, ancestor worship, various pagan gods, Leftism, Mother Earth, witchcraft, and on and on. Some like David Horowitz are agnostic and don’t know what to believe about God. Trust me he believes in his heart something.

                    As this is not a debate, I am not going to gore you on being an atheist. This is because you asked me nondebate questions merely seeking understanding. I will, however, make an observation that the atheists seem mostly to be angry with God about something or other. This seems to always be at the center of it.

                    You admire Ayn Rand. There is much about which to admire. She was all about personal empowerment and responsability. But her biography indicated she did not tolerate others in her orbit exhibiting these tendencies whenever they infringed upon her. Therefore, how may we all be like her in that even she did not tolerate others just like her being nearby? This, then, is not a universal saving philosophy.

                    You continue to wonder at how people involved in a religion can commit attrocities. I have news for you. F. Swenson, people are no good. They have free will. Many overcome this negative starting point.

                    Blue laws were intended to assist people to keep the Old Testament laws. The Jews had an intricate set of laws in place to assist them in keeping the 10 commandments. All of these fail. It is not possible to work your way to Heaven. Those seeking this “other way” cannot succeed. Sorry you missed your golf date.

                    Your question about not understanding how one gets from the Bible being a great book to being a devine book illustrates that I am a poor communicator. Therefore, let me be blunt. The Bible is unique. It is every bit the living word of God. In it you’ll find massive empirical evidence of ancient predictions which have progressively come true along with those coming true today. It is not the purpose of our discussion for me to attempt to persuade you to become a Christian. I am merely answering your question. It is up to you for yourself to read it and decide.

                    Lastly, again I am not being clear. The Church is not going to be here much longer. This is biblical not seqular. You may want to reread my definition of the Church.

                    I am winding down here. There does not seem to be much more to say. Please remember my original point was simply that Jews who fear and mistrust “people like me” are turning their backs upon those who are rapidly becoming their only remaining friends. But even this is prophesied.

            • Marylou permalink
              November 23, 2009 11:59 pm

              The Christians did not break off from Judaism. They were separate in their beliefs from the very beginning of their existence.

              • F. Swemson permalink
                November 30, 2009 4:38 pm

                EZ;

                Thanks again for your reply.

                So we seem to have a real conundrum here.

                You make several points, which I’ve heard before, which honestly do not apply to me:

                non-Christians want to challenge the Christian’s beliefs in various ways while not defending their own belief.

                … people do not merely not believe in Jesus. They do always believe something. It may be ghosts, reincarnation, space aliens seeding the earth with people, meditation, New Agism, ancestor worship, various pagan gods, Leftism, Mother Earth, witchcraft, and on and on.

                I will, however, make an observation that the atheists seem mostly to be angry with God about something or other.

                When I hear such things I can only respond honestly that:

                1: Atheism to me is NOT a belief, its simply a LACK of belief, therefore I have nothing to define.

                2: I honestly do not believe in ANY of the alternative belief systems you mention, and

                3: I’m not angry at god. How can I be angry at a hypothetical being which I have no reason to believe even exists.

                Hence my dilemma. Every time I admit that I’m an atheist to anyone, they assume that it’s because of one or more of the points you made above, and the honest fact is that none of them apply to me.

                I appreciate the time you’re taking with me here because I don’t understand why people react to atheists as they do. You hint at it yourself when you say:

                I am not going to gore you on being an atheist.

                Why would you want to “gore me” at all ? How does the fact that I don’t believe in any of the religious alternatives you mention above affect you, or your family, or anyone in the community for that matter?

                My understanding of Christianity tells me that it advocates tolerance and compassion for others. So why am I not included in those “others”?

                I’ve heard the argument “well you MUST believe in something” so many times, that I can only say WHY?

                I can understand if religious people think that I’m crazy, or if they feel sorry for me, because I’m missing something that they all have, or that I’m stupid, or any of those things. What I can’t understand how that translates into the utter hatred and contempt that so many religious people have for me and virtually anyone who admits that he’s an atheist…. It’s not like I march around in front of places of worship, carrying signs maligning their faith, nor do I attack them in any way, except occasionally in self defense, when they accuse me of ridiculous things like being a Marxist, or even a homosexual, which are all patently absurd.

                This is what I’m hoping you, because you’ve been so gracious about this, can explain to me in a calm and rational manner. Nobody has ever been able to explain this to me, so the only logical conclusion that I can come to under these circumstances is that they somehow view me as some kind of threat to them, which only compounds the problem for me, since that of course makes no sense to me either.

                I’m not trying to change your beliefs, and I’m grateful that you’re not trying to change mine (or my lack of same), but I’m getting pretty frustrated by the entire thing.

                I’m honest, hard working, and a good neighbor. I’m a former Marine who risked his life for his country, because I’m a patriot, and frankly I’m angry about this because I don’t think that I deserve any of the abuse that I’ve received for this over the years.

                So please tell me, if you can, why my lack of any specific faith makes people hate me as they do….

                I’d really appreciate an answer to that question…

                V/R

                F.S.

                • F. Swemson permalink
                  November 30, 2009 4:48 pm

                  PS:

                  I have read the bible.

                  In my undergraduate studies I majored in philosophy, and have read more about religion in my life than most religious people ever have or ever will.

                  I can easily explain the flaws in the Empiricism of Locke and Hume, or deliver an explanation of any of Aristotle’s principles. So please don’t think that my position is coming from lack of exposure to the bible or ignorance of it, the Talmud, the Quran, or the old testament. I studied these things because I was curious about something that everyone around me seemed to simply accept as fact, which puzzled me then just as it does today.

                  • Ez4moi permalink
                    November 30, 2009 9:46 pm

                    You’ve noticed that I’m taking great care to treat you with respect. This is because I am indeed tolerant and compassionate toward others.

                    Give me credit for not ascribing general observations specifically to you. Rather, I am letting you tell me what you think. At the same time, surely you’ll acknowledge that Christians very often get caught up in a purely defensive position when they are jumped and for example the attacker’s belief in channeling the spirit world never comes up? This is all I was saying.

                    As to goring you on atheism, you are right I am not. Why would I want to? I would want to were we debating. It is intellectually dishonest for one side of a debate to be permitted the high ground of attack without being required to defend his own stance. We are not debating.

                    While you show no anger toward God, it is my personal experience that atheists I know have a complaint which goes like this: how if there is a God would He not have saved my daughter from death? Hence anger is manifested. Consequently, there can be no God.

                    Atheism is a point of view to which I have given very little thought. It is like Canadians. They are up there. I just hardly think of them. Off the top of my head I’ll attempt to provide you with an answer as to why you perceive a negative aversion on the part of Christians. I do not have hatred or utter contempt for atheists.

                    You are a creation of God’s. God loves you. Fundamental, born again, spirit filled, evangelical Christians look at you as just another lost person in need of the saving grace which is freely offered. You are not some special category. I know of no seminars on how to win atheists for Jesus. (laughing)

                    The contempt you’ve personally experienced I’d say comes from the cultural war that is raging. It’s been going on for a long time. Christians are only just begining to push back in my opinion. While atheists do not believe in the existence of God and you personally state that you do not believe in any of the belief systems I suggested, atheists are not neutral. You are not neutral. You are on the other side of the cultural war. You said you see a post Christian World as a good thing, part of the world finally growing up. Need I say more?

                    Finally, you are having trouble with this: 1) Atheism to me is NOT a belief, its simply a LACK of belief, therefore I have nothing to define.

                    I think a fundamentalist Christian hearing you say this immediately sees you as in denial. F. Swemson, you undoubtedly do think in terms of a lack of belief without a need to define. However, on the contrary you may as well be wearing a sign which defines your belief to a T. A whole set of beliefs flows directly from your statement.

                    For example, you do not believe in an intelligently designed God created physical reality if you do not believe in God. Do you realize this is why you once spoke of not looking to the past origin but to the future in this quote, “Rather than spending our time trying to figure out where we come from, I think we’d all be better off if we concentrated on using what we have to make a better world for future generations…” A fundamental Christian knows an atheist has no answer for where all the physical matter came. If an atheist were to say, it came from the Big Bang then a Christian will think and from where did the Big Bang come? Can you appreciate that without any facts whatsoever to explain this origination, a fundamental Christian may very likely have contempt for this incredulous position.

                    However, they do not have contempt for you personally. Does this help you understand the vibrations you tell me you have felt?

                    Look, all this has been a very interesting exercise. Again, please remember my original point which started this discussion was that Jews who imagine fundamental Christians to be the enemy are blind to reality.

                    This is likely to be my last posting to you. As a courtesy, if you have some truly burning question you’ve not mentioned so far my friend I’ll try to answer. Otherwise, let me suggest one final time that while you’ve seen the words written in the Holy Bible, you’ve not read them with understanding. Everyone decides for one’s self. God insists the decision be voluntary.

                    All the best to you,

                    Ez4moi

      • tarleton permalink
        November 20, 2009 12:55 pm

        It’s clear to me that Christianity is dying a natural death here in the Western World….over in Europe , Christendom is already dead and I suspect will be sadly missed
        That proud tower was undermined by modern science and pushed over by the duel catastrophe’s of WW1 and 2 and the RANDOMNESS of fate
        The US is the last bastion of Christendom in the West and if it’s going to survive the soul death of Europe , then it’s got to make it’s peace with the advances of science…the genie of science will not be put back in the bottle ….evolution is 150 years old and is not going to go away, regardless of monkey trials , kooky fundamentalist etc
        If Christianity is going to survive ,it must become more flexible , less literal , more metaphorical and seen through a ”wide angel lens”
        The human mind is hardwired to believe in god , or has evolved not to suffer a vacuum of nothingness….mankind is a sinfull creature who needs religion as a guide and accountability
        Christianity needs a kind of scientific reformation to survive in the 21st century and the post modern mind
        Fundamentalism is for the 19th century mind and is hopelessly anacronistic and will NEVER be believed by the post modern mind

        • WestSider permalink
          November 20, 2009 1:31 pm

          I think you are painting Christianity with a really wide brush…there is plenty of divergence of opinion about many points of theology within the “Christian” religion…countless denominations, individual churches, preachers, etc… Sometimes the views of one group directly contradict some of the others. The Catholic Church endorses the Big Bang and other scientific discoveries. What you are talking about is Fundamentalism…which is but one of many Christian schools of thought.

        • Marylou permalink
          November 20, 2009 6:08 pm

          wide angel lens I love it!! Maybe, precisely!!

          I am hoping to gather my faculties and find time to mount a response to the various ones who have addressed me…

        • Ez4moi permalink
          November 21, 2009 12:07 pm

          Naturally, I disagree with your hypothesis that Christianity must change in order to survive. A changed fundamentalist Christianity would no longer be Christianity. In which case it would cease all together.

          Biblically speaking, however, the Church Age is rapidly approaching its’ end.

          • F. Swemson permalink
            November 21, 2009 12:15 pm

            EZ;

            I agree with you when you say:

            “Biblically speaking, however, the Church Age is rapidly approaching its’ end.”

            It’s not that often that we hear that being said by a Christian, & I’d love to hear your reasoning for that.

            • Ez4moi permalink
              November 21, 2009 6:39 pm

              No, respectfully, you do not agree with me, Swemson. You have your secular reasons for thinking the Church Age is ending soon. I said “Biblically speaking” the Church Age is rapidly approaching its’ end. I’ve taken the time to provide you with the reason why in a longer recent posting.

              • F. Swemson permalink
                November 21, 2009 7:33 pm

                Where can I find that ?

      • Marylou permalink
        November 23, 2009 11:40 pm

        Dear EZ,

        I am a christian, too. To add to your comments, the ancient Jews also were confused about Jesus, or didn’t believe, because they didn’t get the idea of a spiritual King. They were expecting an earthly king, hence, the necessity for the crucifixion of the upstart.

        I share much of your belief, and I too was changed forever, irrevocably from the inside and all for the good when I stood up at church camp when I was but 12 years old. Then all hell broke loose, and it has been my lifelong pursuit to understand all the bad jazz that happened to me and convert it into something useful for Him so that others might know this peace.

        I see that Mr. Horowitz, while a Jew by birth, sees that we really do look upon Jesus as our savior and he gives us that, which I find quite liberal and which I think enables and furthers any discussion, as opposed to the usual resistance we encounter.

        Thanks for sharing. I would love to blog more but you know how we conservatives are. Gotta work to earn that money to pay those bills! just glad I came to my senses and am able now.

      • Marylou permalink
        November 23, 2009 11:55 pm

        EZ,

        I must admit I am somewhat taken aback at your last 3-4 paragraphs here where you seem to be laboring under some idea that I have said something critical which in fact I did not say nor mean to imply. I simply observed that I see agnostics/atheists being morally upright and wanted to remark about it.

        This is one thing I love about this website. It is truly liberal in the classic sense of the word, in other words, it allows great latitude from a highly diverse group of contributors and thence engenders deep and meaningful, heartfelt discussion of many issues.

    • November 20, 2009 9:50 pm

      Thank you Marylou.

      David Horowitz and I are both agnostics, however of differing varieties. You can see David’s spiritual side in his books “The End of Time” and “A Cracking of the Heart.”

      For an example of my spirituality:
      http://relinquishingjunk.com/theological_discussion.htm

      Upon encountering these various texts I think it becomes clear how one can fail to embrace a theistic understanding of God while still embracing morality.

      • Marylou permalink
        November 23, 2009 11:26 pm

        You’re welcome, David. I was struggling for an answer to F. Swemson’s lecture to me when your note of appreciation arrived. I had got only as far as that the Ayn Rand contingent are objectivists while I am decidedly subjective about things in the large part and have chosen to enjoy my feelings and trust my intuitions. This is a hard-won trust which represents many years of spiritual and moral work. I do, of course, as a reasonable person also value the objective view, just not in such large doses.

        I want to thank you for sharing your writings with us and look forward to reading more on the website you provided us.

  5. Ez4moi permalink
    November 20, 2009 9:24 am

    Well, my experience is different. What you all have discovered, I knew all along. My whole life I’ve had to argue with Marxist boneheads. Of course it helps now that the economic theory is known to be crackpot. I had a room mate at Thunderbird who was a bleeding heart liberal. One day Vinnie and I were again discussing politics. I said, “You mean to say that if we took every weapon we had and dumped them in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean all our enemies would do the same in awe of our good example?”

    Vinnie replied, “Yes.” Thereafter, we never had another political discussion. I realized no argument could penetrate his liberalism.

    Later in the semester, he succeeded in getting a date with one of the dozen or so females at school. She was very pretty and he was excited. They were going to a local country club for a party to which she had invited him. Hysterically, it turned out to be a John Birch Society party. I still laugh at the sight of him returning after the party.

    Oh, and by Thunderbird, I mean of course the top rated international business school in the USA.

  6. politicalmoxie permalink
    November 20, 2009 4:04 pm

    Explain to me why I should care if some are atheists at News Real…

    @Swemson
    I also noticed the small “j” !

    • F. Swemson permalink
      November 20, 2009 4:19 pm

      What are your thoughts about my speculations as to why ?

  7. sovereignjim permalink
    November 21, 2009 7:19 am

    Note that the idiots jumping on the small j in “jew” ignore the small p in “protestants like me”, or the J in “Judeaism” or the f and c in “fundamentalist christian”.
    Get a life idiots.

    • Ez4moi permalink
      November 21, 2009 11:37 am

      Thanks, SovereignJim, it was an oversight. I was caught up in expressing ideas and less on proof reading.

  8. William James Ward permalink
    November 21, 2009 2:15 pm

    Marylou,

    There are many people that espouse morality and when read
    seem to like Americanism, Capatalism and of course freedom,
    yet can be agnostic or atheistic. The faithful understand if
    they are studying their Old and New Testament that by the
    power of the Word knowledge is imputed to them, knowledge and
    power. There are passages that state “A word to the wise is
    sufficient, the fool deserves his stripes”, also “Cast not pearls
    before swine”. Think on this. I have more stripes than most and
    recognize that if I had only listened, been more studious and
    less hard headed I would have been better off in life.
    The startling thing once accepting Christianity is the realization
    that it is by reading the word and puting it into the heart that
    you can attain the armor of God and His understanding.
    There is no arguing with those who have made up their mind to
    not accept God. Paul Tillich who taught at the Chicago Theological
    Seminary had published a book of his sermons. One was on”Being Born
    Again”. He stated that it was a desire for the truth that wins
    out, with true desire the truth will grab you and shake you and never
    let you go. Remember as to Christians, they preach Christ and Him
    Crucified, that is the central place of salvation, be crucified with
    Him. To the Jew this is a stumbling block, to the Greek (gentile)
    foolishness. Jesus said “The world will pass away but my Word will
    never pass away”. The Church age seems to be coming to an end, what’s
    next, who will be right, I know one thing for sure we will all find out.
    Romantic myth is a dodge, inane arguments to logic, contextual
    misdirection, tautological rants take away from true dialog. Today we
    are on the brink of war over our freedom and the forces of darkness
    trying to end a Blessed Nation. If there are those who speak out against
    Obaminization for lesser reasons than I, fine, If for higher reasons,
    I am open. I am very angry that our elected government is betraying
    us, how many pieces of silver or what cheap dalliance is given for
    our lives and that of our posterity. America is a place where people
    can live together in peace and have differing beleifs but the left
    wants to enslave the rest of us and destroy our institutions, well
    they are close to success and we all must speak out and do what we
    as individuals can.

  9. Marylou permalink
    November 23, 2009 11:48 pm

    WJW,

    Born again is when a person believes in his heart (or as in my case decides to believe) that Jesus is who he said he was. It’s right there in the scripture but only can be understood as the Spirit leads and illuminates to the desiring heart. Then upon saying out loud an acceptance of Jesus as Lord of our lives, in other words, we admit that we are hopelessly flawed, can never attain perfection, and thus need God in some form and therefore we choose to accept Jesus spiritually. This defies logic. It’s not about logic; faith and logic can be mutually exclusive. When we speak this acceptance aloud and especially when we then share it with another (in our excitement, awe, wonder, trepidation) we then begin the irrevocable and wondrous process of observing and experiencing the glorious change that will be worked within us if we will allow it and especially if we seek it.

    ML

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